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Subject: the soft bigotry of low expectations rss

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jeremy cobert
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At first I thought Bill Mahr was punking America and trying to get ratings, now it appears as thought he has grown up a bit.

Video in the link
http://nation.foxnews.com/2014/09/11/bill-maher-absolutely-c...

MAHER: There are illiberal beliefs that are held by vast numbers of Muslim people that --

ROSE: A vast number of Christians too.

MAHER: No, that's not true. Not true. Vast numbers of Christians do not believe that if you leave the Christian religion you should be killed for it. Vast numbers of Christians do not treat women as second class citizens. Vast numbers of Christians --

ROSE: I agree with that --

MAHER: -- do not believe if you draw a picture of Jesus Christ you should get killed for it. So yes, does ISIS do Khmer Rouge-like activities where they just kill people indiscriminately who aren't just like them? Yes. And would most Muslim people in the world do that or condone that? No.

ROSE: No.

MAHER: But most Muslim people in the world do condone violence just for what you think.

ROSE: How do you know that?

MAHER: They do. First of all they say it. They shout it.

ROSE: Vast majorities of Muslims say that?

MAHER: Absolutely. There was a Pew poll in Egypt done a few years ago -- 82% said, I think, stoning is the appropriate punishment for adultery. Over 80% thought death was the appropriate punishment for leaving the Muslim religion. I'm sure you know these things.

ROSE: Well I do. But I don't believe --

MAHER: So to claim that this religion is like other religions is just naive and plain wrong. It is not like other religious. The New York Times pointed out in an op-ed a couple weeks ago that in Saudi Arabia just since August 4th, they think it was, they have beheaded 19 people. Most for non-violent crimes including homosexuality.
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Josh
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Ehn. Christianity did it first, Islam is just catching up. Also Islam exists in the more impoverished/brutal areas, at least the violent flavors. Pretending the results are unique ttoIslam is pretty silly.
 
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Mark Watson
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Indeed, Christianity only stopped doing it a couple of hundred years ago.
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Trey Stone
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Archonsod wrote:
Indeed, Christianity only stopped doing it a couple of hundred years ago.


But they did get over it.

Islam needs to follow suit.
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Jeff
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Archonsod wrote:
Indeed, Christianity only stopped doing it a couple of hundred years ago.


I can't believe I'm effectively on the side of Bill Maher by way of Jeremy, but this is like condoning modern slavery because we only stopped doing it 150 years ago...

That said, I don't think a half-remembered poll of Egyptians is enough to show the attitudes of "vast majorities" of Muslims. Barbarism exists in the Muslim world, but barbarism exists anywhere poverty and ignorance are the norm.
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ExcitingJeff wrote:
Barbarism exists in the Muslim world, but barbarism exists anywhere poverty and ignorance is the norm.


Exactly, you raise the standard of living and education of a group of people and they won't channel their discontent to violence (as much). Islam is just the conduit, not the cause.
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Josh
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ExcitingJeff wrote:
Archonsod wrote:
Indeed, Christianity only stopped doing it a couple of hundred years ago.


I can't believe I'm effectively on the side of Bill Maher by way of Jeremy, but this is like condoning modern slavery because we only stopped doing it 150 years ago...

That said, I don't think a half-remembered poll of Egyptians is enough to show the attitudes of "vast majorities" of Muslims. Barbarism exists in the Muslim world, but barbarism exists anywhere poverty and ignorance are the norm.


It has nothing to do with condoning it. I hate that bullshit equivilence that admitting understanding means sehow condoning it. It is a block to any reasonable discourse on many issues.

Attempting to paint Islam as somehow magically different than Christianity in an inherent way seperate from the social context both exist in right now is a flat out false equivilency thing. It's asking why the son of jobless methheads hasn't done as good for himself as the son of a millionare governer. You can even see the innocent-eyed bewildered shrug of the shoulders and a faux-disgusted shake of the head at a lack of 'real effort.'

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Josh
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Drew1365 wrote:
TheChin! wrote:
ExcitingJeff wrote:
Barbarism exists in the Muslim world, but barbarism exists anywhere poverty and ignorance is the norm.


Exactly, you raise the standard of living and education of a group of people and they won't channel their discontent to violence (as much). Islam is just the conduit, not the cause.


Poverty has very little to do with why Muslims join terrorist organizations.


Citation Needed.
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Kelsey Rinella
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jeremycobert wrote:
here was a Pew poll in Egypt done a few years ago -- 82% said, I think, stoning is the appropriate punishment for adultery. Over 80% thought death was the appropriate punishment for leaving the Muslim religion. I'm sure you know these things.


So, we're agreed that whatever religion is most common in the poorest parts of the world is likely to be associated with people taking positions which tend to seem most reasonable to desperate people?
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Kelsey Rinella
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Drew1365 wrote:
TheChin! wrote:
ExcitingJeff wrote:
Barbarism exists in the Muslim world, but barbarism exists anywhere poverty and ignorance is the norm.


Exactly, you raise the standard of living and education of a group of people and they won't channel their discontent to violence (as much). Islam is just the conduit, not the cause.


Poverty has very little to do with why Muslims join terrorist organizations.


Are all vicious legal regimes terrorist organizations?
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Shadrach wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:


Poverty has very little to do with why Muslims join terrorist organizations.


Citation Needed.


There is an element of college educated terrorists who come from wealthy families who are usually the ones who have the means to bring terrorist acts to the U.S. They are the outliers though, for every one of those there are a multitude more stuck in the Middle-East blowing up Iraq police stations and firing homemade rockets into Israel. If more states in the Middle East were egalitarian and less repressive, there wouldn't be a large base of malcontent for these disaffected middle-upper class types to glom onto.
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Jeff
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Drew1365 wrote:
Look it up yourself. Poverty is a common excuse, but most terrorists are quite middle class.


Most terrorists are quite anonymous.
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Drew1365 wrote:
TheChin! wrote:
ExcitingJeff wrote:
Barbarism exists in the Muslim world, but barbarism exists anywhere poverty and ignorance is the norm.


Exactly, you raise the standard of living and education of a group of people and they won't channel their discontent to violence (as much). Islam is just the conduit, not the cause.


Poverty has very little to do with why Muslims join terrorist organizations.
It varies. Poverty and the impossibility of improvement is certainly an element driving local youth in the arms of groups like Hamas, et al. The ideological component is necessary, but not dominant.

But on the other hand, a fair amount of European born youths are packing up to fight fr the Califate (IS), sometimes talking wife and children along. This almost certainly leads to a worse economical perspective for them, which wouldn't be a surprise to theme either. For them, the ideological component is dominant.

In all cases there is a mix of social, psychological, economical and ideological factors at play. Not to mention media and international relations. Boiling it down to a single aspect is self deceiving, methinks.
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Trey Stone
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I'd say the majority of grunts are poor people or losers who see themselves with little prospects.

Those who tend to be the leaders tend to come from more moneyed and hence more educated backgrounds.
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Venga2 wrote:

It varies. Poverty and the impossibility of improvement is certainly an element driving local youth in the arms of groups like Hamas, et al. The ideological component is necessary, but not dominant.

But on the other hand, a fair amount of European born youths are packing up to fight fr the Califate (IS), sometimes talking wife and children along. This almost certainly leads to a worse economical perspective for them, which wouldn't be a surprise to theme either. For them, the ideological component is dominant.

In all cases there is a mix of social, psychological, economical and ideological factors at play. Not to mention media and international relations. Boiling it down to a single aspect is self deceiving, methinks.


I don't agree. If all the Europeans were going to join the Iranian army to help invade other countries and create a new Islamic world order, I would agree. Instead, my perception is that a group of people of arbitrary ideological commonality are going to help their "brothers" who are attempting to overthrow their oppressors. The core injustice being a bunch of oppressed people in the middle east.

Don't get me wrong, I am not being sympathetic to their actions, goals or methods. I just don't see the ideological factor being the driver to violence, it is just the particular metaphorical tribe standard for people to rally to in a time of stress.
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Drew1365 wrote:
ExcitingJeff wrote:
That said, I don't think a half-remembered poll of Egyptians is enough to show the attitudes of "vast majorities" of Muslims.


What might be important to note here is that this a poll of Egyptians, far more modern and far less oppressive than many Muslim nations. And (at least before the Muslim Brotherhood started screwing it up) one that had a healthy tourism industry giving it much interaction with Westerners. Egypt is fairly "Westernized" compared to other middle-eastern nations. So those polls in Egypt are quite telling.


The poll he seems to be referring to seems to have been done in 2010. According to this more recent, wider poll, it seems like Egypt is actually one of the least liberal Muslim countries (I'm sure the Muslim Brotherhood has something to do with this). But if we're looking at overall numbers, it seems like the number today is 64%. It's still disturbing, but it's progress.
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Jeff
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bjlillo wrote:
TheChin! wrote:
ExcitingJeff wrote:
Barbarism exists in the Muslim world, but barbarism exists anywhere poverty and ignorance is the norm.


Exactly, you raise the standard of living and education of a group of people and they won't channel their discontent to violence (as much). Islam is just the conduit, not the cause.


Actually, that's incorrect. Wealthy, better educated Muslims are more likely to wage jihad.


It's a stretch to take a single poll of 600 Muslim men living in the UK and use it to draw generalized conclusions about all Muslim radicals.
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Mark Watson
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ExcitingJeff wrote:

I can't believe I'm effectively on the side of Bill Maher by way of Jeremy, but this is like condoning modern slavery because we only stopped doing it 150 years ago...

Never mentioned condoning it, it's a counter to the notion Islam is in some way different to other religions.

The only difference is simply that Islam has not yet had the long and bloody fight Christianity went through before it stopped burning people at the stake.
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Is the IRA still considered a terrorist organization?
 
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I'm going to go shoot myself after this, but I'm about to agree with Bill Maher, Cobert, and fucking Drew. It's a false equivalence to treat Islam like all other religions. Yes, Christianity has a violent history, but that's irrelevant to the current discussion. And yes, most Muslims are not anywhere near what you would call "radical," especially if they live in Western countries. But it's foolish to ignore the sheer number of radical Muslims out there or the brutal misogyny and homophobia that's part of even mainstream Islam. Christians are hardly tolerant, but a culture that accepts beheading of homosexuals as a mainstream practice makes James Dobson look like Harvey Milk. There's a difference of degree there that I think is absolutely relevant to the discussion.
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Must insist that Christians are as evil as Muslims... just keep saying it over and over, Christians bad too... Christians bad too... Muslims not so bad when seen in context of Christians... who are bad too.

That about right?
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bjlillo wrote:

Actually, that's incorrect. Wealthy, better educated Muslims are more likely to wage jihad.


The conclusion doesn't support your assertion either:

Quote:
...But in reality, there’s little empirical research on the early stages of radicalisation and it’s still unclear what factors make potential recruits open to persuasion to join a terrorist movement. This ‘open-to-persuasion’ phase is marked by growing sympathies for terrorism and violent protest, and must be investigated further.”
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Shadrach wrote:
Ehn. Christianity did it first, Islam is just catching up. Also Islam exists in the more impoverished/brutal areas, at least the violent flavors. Pretending the results are unique ttoIslam is pretty silly.


I do love the moral relativism that goes on with Islam and the progressives.

For example the Democrat party was run by racists less then 60-70 years ago and that is somehow not relevant at all to any discussion of modern democrats and any perceived racism.

And yet Christianity was intolerant some 200 years ago and THAT IS RELAVENT to the discussion of violence in Islamic practices today.

Stay classy my cowardly friends, stay classy !

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jeremycobert wrote:

And yet Christianity was intolerant some 200 years ago and THAT IS RELAVENT to the discussion of violence in Islamic practices today.




Who complains about Christianity being intolerant 200 years ago? Christianity is intolerant today. Just because Islam is more evil doesn't mean Christianity is no longer awful.
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TheChin! wrote:
Venga2 wrote:

It varies. Poverty and the impossibility of improvement is certainly an element driving local youth in the arms of groups like Hamas, et al. The ideological component is necessary, but not dominant.

But on the other hand, a fair amount of European born youths are packing up to fight fr the Califate (IS), sometimes talking wife and children along. This almost certainly leads to a worse economical perspective for them, which wouldn't be a surprise to theme either. For them, the ideological component is dominant.

In all cases there is a mix of social, psychological, economical and ideological factors at play. Not to mention media and international relations. Boiling it down to a single aspect is self deceiving, methinks.


I don't agree. If all the Europeans were going to join the Iranian army to help invade other countries and create a new Islamic world order, I would agree. Instead, my perception is that a group of people of arbitrary ideological commonality are going to help their "brothers" who are attempting to overthrow their oppressors. The core injustice being a bunch of oppressed people in the middle east.

Don't get me wrong, I am not being sympathetic to their actions, goals or methods. I just don't see the ideological factor being the driver to violence, it is just the particular metaphorical tribe standard for people to rally to in a time of stress.
The 'tribe' being Muslim religion in a general sense. Most of the people leaving have no direct cultural or ethnic relations to the natives of IS controlled territory. So that is pretty indistinguishable form Islam as an ideology, if you ask me.

Mind you I am not rejecting the 'helping the oppressed' component. But you seem to discount the ideological influence entirely, and that is just wrong. All the propaganda is based around the tenets of faith (as interpreted by the extremists). And this is a powerful tool for them, especially via the internet, the main medium of recruitment for IS and others.
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