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Mage Knight Board Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: amazing: Time Bending to get back stolen Artifacts??? rss

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Ryan Yan
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Yet another interesting topic raised during the rule discussions in MK:LL Conquer & Hold Tournament #2

MikePustilnik) wrote:
On page 11 of the rules, Melee Attacks, section 2a:
"The attacker can spend 5 damage to steal one Artifact from the blocker and put it in his discard pile:
Artifacts can be stolen if they are in the blocker's discard pile, Play area, or assigned to a Wounded Unit (including Units wounded during this attack).
Artifacts that are in the blocker's hand, Deed deck, or assigned to a unwounded Unit cannot be stolen."

It seems clear to me that the Attacker could steal the artifact from the play area....

Time Bending states:
". . . Put all other cards you played this turn (not those discarded or thrown away) back in your hand. . . ."

Interpreting this card literally, it would seem that the defender would be able to get his stolen artifact back, because it was "a card played that turn". I am uncomfortable with this interpretation, but that is what the card says.


more discussions:
MikePustilnik wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
I think it's obvious that you can only "put ... cards you played this turn back in your hand" if you still have them, not if they were stolen or lost to you in some other way. A little common sense would help here.

The fact that you don't get back cards that were played and thrown away would be obvious even if weren't called out in the parenthetical text, which just adds emphasis and need not be inclusive of every possible exception.


I am uncomfortable with my own interpretation, but I do not think that it is obvious that the literal interpretation of the card text is wrong. After all, the spell is called "Time Bending", so going back to the time before you played (and later lost) the artifact does make thematic sense. I do not think that the "common sense" argument is so strong that we are required to reject the writing on the card. In my opinion, if the artifact was indeed played that turn, then he gets it back when he plays Time Bending, regardless of who now controls it.

I am certainly not 100% sure. I think an official ruling would help here.


DaviddesJ wrote:
If you can "take back" into your hand even cards that have been stolen from you, what if your opponent stole the card and then flipped Long Night and reshuffled it into their deck? Can you take it back from their deck? Do you get to go through their deck looking for it?
...
In general, I'm more inclined to use common sense in interpreting the text on cards, because there's such limited space you can't assume that everything can be spelled out.


syzygia wrote:
I do agree with David here. Even if a literal interpretation of time bending suggests you get back something stolen, for me it makes no sense. I think they simply didn't considered that case. We can add it to the list of questions that needs official answer, but I'd strongly suggest we play with the rule that you don't get it back (even if it's a house rule).


prograft wrote:
IMO if the following text:
"At the end of your turn, ... Put all other cards you played this turn (...) back in your hand."
were put in another way:
"At the end of your turn, ... Instead of putting all other cards in your play area (...) into your discard pile, put them back into you hand."
it could be much better.
Although I know it's just personal understanding, not anything better than a house rule.
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Ali Cali
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I'll need to check where I saw this, but cards in the discard pile are not subject to Time Bending. This was addressed with Improvisation, where a card is put in the discard pile; if Time Bending was cast, the card discarded by Improvisation is not added back into the hand.

Since artifacts stolen in PvP are put into the discard pile, they should be out of reach from Time Bending.
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Magnesi
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aliallison wrote:
I'll need to check where I saw this, but cards in the discard pile are not subject to Time Bending. This was addressed with Improvisation, where a card is put in the discard pile; if Time Bending was cast, the card discarded by Improvisation is not added back into the hand.

Since artifacts stolen in PvP are put into the discard pile, they should be out of reach from Time Bending.
Well, the wording is not that cards on the discard pile are not subjected to TB; the exact wording is cards discarded.
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Philip
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aliallison wrote:
I'll need to check where I saw this, but cards in the discard pile are not subject to Time Bending. This was addressed with Improvisation, where a card is put in the discard pile; if Time Bending was cast, the card discarded by Improvisation is not added back into the hand.

Since artifacts stolen in PvP are put into the discard pile, they should be out of reach from Time Bending.


I agree with Alia here. I would say that a stolen artifact would fit in the "discard/throwed" away category.
 
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Bart Keys
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morni wrote:
I agree with Alia here. I would say that a stolen artifact would fit in the "discard/throwed" away category.


I just don't see any text that supports this..

When I look at this effect I wonder if we would ever see it occur.


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Michael Pustilnik
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It seems that I have the minority position on this issue.
 
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