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Subject: is this legal?? rss

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ran li
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hi encountered this fancy trick in an OP. please let me know if this is legal. thanks.

IRW Kahazara does red maneuever, goes 2 back. place aux token. Player uses romulan pilot to move two forward(green), and remove aux token. Perform action.

thanks guys
 
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Evan
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Nope. It would work if the actions on the card happened in the opposite order, but the scan happens first, and the move is contingent on it. So what happens is the ship tries to perform a scan action, but can't because it has an aux, and because the scan failed, it doesn't get the move either.

(On the other hand, this would totally work on the Tinyprise.)
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Erich Claussen
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Not sure if this 100% legal either. I think it all depends on when you have to check for power strain. If you take the card at its meaning, then it would be played right after moving. If you have to check for power strain after each movement before cards are applied, this would not work as the aux power would negate the free scan action, which would negate the second movement.

If the checking for power strain occurs after all movement is completed, then it should work... as both movements would complete, red place aux, green remove...
 
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Mauziz
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kobold47 wrote:
(On the other hand, this would totally work on the Tinyprise.)


This is not true because the free scan action doesn't come from the ship's action bar (in the same way that Picard's free action doesn't come from the action bar but comes from Picard).
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Steven Redfearn
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ran495 wrote:
hi encountered this fancy trick in an OP. please let me know if this is legal. thanks.

IRW Kahazara does red maneuever, goes 2 back. place aux token. Player uses romulan pilot to move two forward(green), and remove aux token. Perform action.

thanks guys


Not Legal, the aux token prevents free actions, see page 19 of the rule book. Therefore, he cannot place the scan token and cannot make the additional move, the move is based on placing the token.
 
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Evan
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brettscho wrote:
kobold47 wrote:
(On the other hand, this would totally work on the Tinyprise.)


This is not true because the free scan action doesn't come from the ship's action bar (in the same way that Picard's free action doesn't come from the action bar but comes from Picard).


Weird! I had assumed that, y'know, being on the action bar was enough to make it an action bar action, but yeah, FAQ thread confirms that you're right about Picard, and surely the same reasoning applies to the Pilot.
 
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Completely not applicable to the thread, but this is all I can think of when I see that thread title:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqSB4DFZqoM
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Michael Nelson
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kobold47 wrote:
brettscho wrote:
kobold47 wrote:
(On the other hand, this would totally work on the Tinyprise.)


This is not true because the free scan action doesn't come from the ship's action bar (in the same way that Picard's free action doesn't come from the action bar but comes from Picard).


Weird! I had assumed that, y'know, being on the action bar was enough to make it an action bar action, but yeah, FAQ thread confirms that you're right about Picard, and surely the same reasoning applies to the Pilot.


This is where most of the confusion with romulan pilot comes from. The scan token he gives is not a scan action. The entire text of pilot is the 'romulan pilot'action.

You can't perform this if you can't take actions, such as from bump or aux.
You can do this and scan
This doesn't trigger abilities that require a 'scan action' (janeway, cloaked mines)
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Steven Redfearn
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koku ryu wrote:
kobold47 wrote:
brettscho wrote:
kobold47 wrote:
(On the other hand, this would totally work on the Tinyprise.)


This is not true because the free scan action doesn't come from the ship's action bar (in the same way that Picard's free action doesn't come from the action bar but comes from Picard).


Weird! I had assumed that, y'know, being on the action bar was enough to make it an action bar action, but yeah, FAQ thread confirms that you're right about Picard, and surely the same reasoning applies to the Pilot.


This is where most of the confusion with romulan pilot comes from. The scan token he gives is not a scan action. The entire text of pilot is the 'romulan pilot'action.

You can't perform this if you can't take actions, such as from bump or aux.
You can do this and scan
This doesn't trigger abilities that require a 'scan action' (janeway, cloaked mines)


Wrong, you perform the scan action as a free action from the card, janeway and cloaked mines still have their same functionality.
 
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Justin Hare
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Nonetheless. I'm seeing it as you can't use Romulan Pilot's action if you bump or have an aux token
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eris lulz
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SMDMadCow wrote:
Wrong, you perform the scan action as a free action from the card, janeway and cloaked mines still have their same functionality.


please don't say people are wrong with consulting the FAQ yourself first.

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1166819/st-aw-official-faq/p...

Crew section: #5
Quote:
Is the Romulan Pilot's free Action considered a "Scan Action"? If not, can it be performed in addition to a Scan Action?

It is not considered a Scan Action and can be performed in addition to a regular Scan Action. This would allow a ship to have 2 Scan Tokens, each independently affecting enemy ships attacked that round.


Romulan Pilot is not a scan action, it places a token as a free action. there is a difference.

Janeway would not be able to trigger from the Romulan Pilot placing a scan token.

Cloaked Mines would still roll 3 attack dice unless the ship performed a scan action. The action is what is required, not the presence of a token.


With regard to the original situation:
1) IRW Kahazara does red maneuever, goes 2 back. place aux token.
2) Player uses romulan pilot to move two forward(green), and remove aux token.
3) Perform action.

This would fail at step 2. Romulan Pilot's text is this:
After you move, you may discard this card to place a (scan) token beside your ship as a free action. If you do so, you may immediately make an additional green maneuver.

So the first thing you must do after discarding him is place the token as a free action. Since you have an aux you cannot perform the free action. The move relies upon the placement of the token happening and since you can't do that, you can't move either.

Hope that helps.
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Steven Redfearn
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There are many things in the FAQ that dont make sense.
Why does the card specify as a free action if you were not performing the scan action? You have to perform an action for it to be free right? And the scan token is the physical representation of completing that action, even ifyou are just placing the token, you are signaling that you performed that action.
 
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Evan
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Not necessarily. For example, Invaluable Advice and Captured Intel have you place a (BS or Evade, respectively) token during the Combat phase, which is therefore clearly not an action.

As for why the card would specify that you take a free action to do something that in many cases isn't an action at all, I think the reason is to exclude the very move that the OP was asking about. Romulan Pilot is pretty powerful already, but it would be even more powerful if it let you perform a red maneuver, immediately clear the Aux, and then get a scan and your normal action. (I suppose there are a few other minor consequences, like you can't use it to clear the aux from Full Alert either.)
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eris lulz
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SMDMadCow wrote:
Why does the card specify as a free action if you were not performing the scan action?


To limit the use of Romulan Pilot to situations where you are able to perform actions. It's a powerful card and requiring you to be able to perform actions places a limitation on it.

As an example, the original situation is a good one. Or performing a comeabout with a Valdore and then using Romulan Pilot to close to range 1.

Making you need to be able to do actions to use it, limits the ways it can be abused.

Another limit on it's power is that if it doesn't count as being a Scan Action, then it doesn't solve certain circumstances which require a Scan action. e.g. with the Cloaked Mines, Janeway or the new Riker. That again is a curb on the card's power.

For a cheap crew card with limited availability it seems like a sensible thing to have done to me.

SMDMadCow wrote:
You have to perform an action for it to be free right? And the scan token is the physical representation of completing that action, even if you are just placing the token, you are signaling that you performed that action.


In the case of Romulan Pilot the action is not a Scan action tho, the Action is to place a token. As Evan has said there are plenty of instances in the game of placing tokens and manipulating tokens, many of which don't count as performing the action which corresponds to the token you end up with.
 
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Steven Redfearn
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Right, but those other cards do not include the "as a free action" qualifier which is showing a relation to some action being required.
 
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The Jigsaw Man
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SMDMadCow wrote:
Right, but those other cards do not include the "as a free action" qualifier which is showing a relation to some action being required.


This is because, IMO, most of them start with the wording ACTION: Do stuff.

The Romulan Pilot takes place in a strange part of the activation sequence. Other cards that happen at the moment "after moving" also have some strange wording.
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SMDMadCow wrote:
Right, but those other cards do not include the "as a free action" qualifier which is showing a relation to some action being required.


I really think that the designer realized how poor the wording on the Rom Pilot was which is why we haven't had a similar worded card since.
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Evan
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Skyguard wrote:
SMDMadCow wrote:
Right, but those other cards do not include the "as a free action" qualifier which is showing a relation to some action being required.


I really think that the designer realized how poor the wording on the Rom Pilot was which is why we haven't had a similar worded card since.


Yeah he just accidentally created this distinction on the one card that crucially depends on it. What a dummy.
 
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kobold47 wrote:
Skyguard wrote:
SMDMadCow wrote:
Right, but those other cards do not include the "as a free action" qualifier which is showing a relation to some action being required.


I really think that the designer realized how poor the wording on the Rom Pilot was which is why we haven't had a similar worded card since.


Yeah he just accidentally created this distinction on the one card that crucially depends on it. What a dummy.


Personal I think it was more the wording on the Rom pilot wasn't clear at all when it came out (is it a free scan action, or something else?). It was a very early in the game when this hit the table.

I don't think there has been a "free action" that isn't a "action bar free action" in the game since. I like to think they decided to be clearer with the idea of "Free Actions" but I have no way of knowing for sure.
 
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J Lin
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They've generally been pretty consistent with wording in regards to actions; people just needed clarification for Pilot because it was the first time it didn't refer to granting an Action as a free action. It specifically states place a token as an action, rather than an action as an action.

Riker from the Assimilation Target prime, for example, gets the ability to remove a token to get a free action to make the related action, and it specifies he takes the action (rather then places the token).
 
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Kristoff Bergenholm
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SeijiTataki wrote:
They've generally been pretty consistent with wording in regards to actions; people just needed clarification for Pilot because it was the first time it didn't refer to granting an Action as a free action. It specifically states place a token as an action, rather than an action as an action.

Riker from the Assimilation Target prime, for example, gets the ability to remove a token to get a free action to make the related action, and it specifies he takes the action (rather then places the token).


Arguably, Riker should have used the 'place a token' wording, since as written right now, he triggers himself!
 
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M R
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Magentawolf wrote:
SeijiTataki wrote:
They've generally been pretty consistent with wording in regards to actions; people just needed clarification for Pilot because it was the first time it didn't refer to granting an Action as a free action. It specifically states place a token as an action, rather than an action as an action.

Riker from the Assimilation Target prime, for example, gets the ability to remove a token to get a free action to make the related action, and it specifies he takes the action (rather then places the token).


Arguably, Riker should have used the 'place a token' wording, since as written right now, he triggers himself!


Huh. Yup.
 
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Well, only if they didn't want it to be recursive after he got a token of a given type. Making him work this way makes him a bit simpler, so I figured its how it was intended to work.
 
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J Lin
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Riker triggering himself seems to be intended. As worded, you can only take his extra action granting once, and you can't take any action more than once, he's effectively a Jean-Luc Picard 'lite'. The end results is basically similar, except he has to 'power up' for a few rounds before you use him. Not sure his cost difference makes that worth it, but he's still a good choice for the action economy.
 
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He's a halfway point between Spock and Picard (with a wind up). He can only do TL, BS and Evade -- but not Scan. Since you can probably do an action on round 1 when you aren't likely to be firing, his draw back to get ready is somewhat minimal. I'd say his cost is fine. Less than Picard, more than Spock on non-Mirror ships (equal to Dukat for Dominion).
 
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