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Subject: "Suicide" cards rss

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Kevin Ritchie
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I'm new to TS and after playing a few games with friends (and losing to better game/card play) I really like it, but I have 1 major issue ...

Just been playing a game and in turn 5 I play "CIA Created" at DefCon 2 and my opponent tells me he's won as it's a "suicide" card... now after an explanation I get it, but wouldn't it make sense to either put a small skull or similar on these "suicide" cards so less experienced players get a heads up or in the rules list them so less experienced players don't commit hours to an online game just to be told that rather than being beaten they've made a card play that loses them the game (a big difference)?

The line of "An experienced player would have headlined it at DC3" or "you should have read all the threads on BGG" just don't sit well with me.
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Steven Cameron
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It's not a bad call as there are a number of suicide cards that aren't immediately obvious. Cards like Star Wars or Missile Envy don't scream DEFCON suicide to a new player. However, once you do learn the cards those icons become needless clutter.

What might be nice would be a quick reference card with just the DEFCON suicide cards on it. Once you've learnt the game, the card goes back in the box, never to be seen again.

At any rate, if you want a good summary of all the DEFCON suicide cards, this should help:
http://twilightstrategy.com/2011/12/12/general-strategy-defc...
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Toms Leikums
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It is not an official term. But rules state that anyone, who brings Defcon down, loses the game. So players just have to be careful and understand, what each card does.
In friendly playing way we handle those situations in 'normal' form. When opponent sees that other player makes such a mistake, he is just told that it isn't wise thing to do.
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Kevin Ritchie
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@Steven, thanks that's a great link which I'll have handy for my next few games!

@Toms, I agree that the onus is on the phasing player to know the rules, it's the "quirk" that a card play can allow an OPPONENT to change the DefCon level which loses you the game as phasing which I think is understated as a losing mechanism for new players ...

Thanks for the replies.
 
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Robert Barnhart
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The best way to handle it is to let a new player replay the card / do something else if possible. Lesson learned.
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Robert Barnhart
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The worst is when you HL Missle Envy at Defcon 4 or 5 and your opponent headlines Cuban Missle Crisis and hands you "We Will Bury You."
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Alex Drazen
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Quote:
The worst is when you HL Missle Envy at Defcon 4 or 5 and your opponent headlines Cuban Missle Crisis and hands you "We Will Bury You."


Only hurts if you're the Soviets

If you're the USA, you just get 4 Ops in the headline without triggering WWBY (unfortunately, no coups, even if you are able to cancel CMC with influence removal).
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Daniel Hogetoorn
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alexdrazen wrote:
Quote:
The worst is when you HL Missle Envy at Defcon 4 or 5 and your opponent headlines Cuban Missle Crisis and hands you "We Will Bury You."


Only hurts if you're the Soviets

If you're the USA, you just get 4 Ops in the headline without triggering WWBY (unfortunately, no coups, even if you are able to cancel CMC with influence removal).
'

Almost correct, in case of influence removal you ARE allowed to coup a non-battleground in the Third World ;-)
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Max DuBoff
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DeDaan wrote:
alexdrazen wrote:
Quote:
The worst is when you HL Missle Envy at Defcon 4 or 5 and your opponent headlines Cuban Missle Crisis and hands you "We Will Bury You."


Only hurts if you're the Soviets

If you're the USA, you just get 4 Ops in the headline without triggering WWBY (unfortunately, no coups, even if you are able to cancel CMC with influence removal).
'

Almost correct, in case of influence removal you ARE allowed to coup a non-battleground in the Third World ;-)


Hmmm, sorry, but why can't you remove the influence immediately and then coup a battleground to win? The card says "at any time."
 
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Nathan Cooley
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MD1616 wrote:

Hmmm, sorry, but why can't you remove the influence immediately and then coup a battleground to win? The card says "at any time."


Because you are couping as a result of your Missile Envy.

USSR headlines Cuban Missile Crisis and USA(you) headlines Missile Envy.

Cuban Missile Crisis resolves, dropping the DEFCON to 2.

Missile Envy resolves. You receive We Will Bury You, which doesn't trigger and you gain 4 ops. You can remove 2 influence from West Germany or Turkey to allow you to coup without losing. You are still the phasing player though. If you coup a battleground, USSR wins.
 
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Max DuBoff
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coinspnnr wrote:
MD1616 wrote:

Hmmm, sorry, but why can't you remove the influence immediately and then coup a battleground to win? The card says "at any time."


Because you are couping as a result of your Missile Envy.

USSR headlines Cuban Missile Crisis and USA(you) headlines Missile Envy.

Cuban Missile Crisis resolves, dropping the DEFCON to 2.

Missile Envy resolves. You receive We Will Bury You, which doesn't trigger and you gain 4 ops. You can remove 2 influence from West Germany or Turkey to allow you to coup without losing. You are still the phasing player though. If you coup a battleground, USSR wins.


Ah, yes, of course. But you would theoretically be allowed to coup a battleground and take a loss yourself. Daniel's wording tripped me up. Thank you.
 
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Daniel Hogetoorn
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MD1616 wrote:
coinspnnr wrote:
MD1616 wrote:

Hmmm, sorry, but why can't you remove the influence immediately and then coup a battleground to win? The card says "at any time."


Because you are couping as a result of your Missile Envy.

USSR headlines Cuban Missile Crisis and USA(you) headlines Missile Envy.

Cuban Missile Crisis resolves, dropping the DEFCON to 2.

Missile Envy resolves. You receive We Will Bury You, which doesn't trigger and you gain 4 ops. You can remove 2 influence from West Germany or Turkey to allow you to coup without losing. You are still the phasing player though. If you coup a battleground, USSR wins.


Ah, yes, of course. But you would theoretically be allowed to coup a battleground and take a loss yourself. Daniel's wording tripped me up. Thank you.


Theoretically, you are also allowed to coup while under CMC. Then you also lose ;-)
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Alex Drazen
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Quote:
Theoretically, you are also allowed to coup while under CMC. Then you also lose ;-)


I'm curious about the wording on the card, as I can't think of anything that ever forces a player to make a coup (and presumably they could remove influence beforehand anyway). So, why does it say "you lose" rather than "you cannot make coups this turn unless you remove 2 influence from WG/Turkey" ? If you don't want to lose, which presumably you don't, you can't make the coups anyway, so the statements are nearly equivalent.

When would you ever be forced to coup, or actually want to coup and lose? Boredom with a highly AP-prone opponent? Or is this touch just for thematic and dramatic flair because it's based on the actual real-life event?
 
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Snooze Fest
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alexdrazen wrote:
Quote:
Theoretically, you are also allowed to coup while under CMC. Then you also lose ;-)


I'm curious about the wording on the card, as I can't think of anything that ever forces a player to make a coup (and presumably they could remove influence beforehand anyway). So, why does it say "you lose" rather than "you cannot make coups this turn unless you remove 2 influence from WG/Turkey" ? If you don't want to lose, which presumably you don't, you can't make the coups anyway, so the statements are nearly equivalent.

When would you ever be forced to coup, or actually want to coup and lose? Boredom with a highly AP-prone opponent? Or is this touch just for thematic and dramatic flair because it's based on the actual real-life event?

If it were a "may not coup" card, the other cards that give you coups or free coups or ops to use as coups might confuse people -- they might wonder which takes precedence?
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arch vorict
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It's not a "defcon suicide".
But from my experiences I can tell, and the first time you encounter it it can be so surprising/frustrating depends on the side.shake
My opponent is US and kept a scoring card to play as last AR.
As URSS at my last AR I play missile envy and pick his other card.
Last AR he must play missile envy and kept a scoring card
END OF THE GAME...
It's not a point victory nor a defcon suicide but a involuntary rule infraction that cost the game.robot
 
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Alex Drazen
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Wait, I thought you can't be forced to hold a scoring card by your opponent?You can still discard them to Quagmire, for instance.
 
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Robert Barnhart
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alexdrazen wrote:
Wait, I thought you can't be forced to hold a scoring card by your opponent?You can still discard them to Quagmire, for instance.


Correct. Rule 10.1.5
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Pedro Estêvão
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positivelyrob wrote:
alexdrazen wrote:
Wait, I thought you can't be forced to hold a scoring card by your opponent?You can still discard them to Quagmire, for instance.


Correct. Rule 10.1.5


So, what happens in that case? Is the Scoring Card just discarded?
 
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Emil Wachsmuth
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The scoring card is played, and scoring occurs. On the first action round of next turn, the opponent would have to follow Quagmire/Bear Trap/Missile Envy again.
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Pedro Estêvão
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Thanks.

But I was referring to arch vorigt's case of the USSR playing Missile Envy in AR7 in and getting a scoring card in exchange. The USSR loses for violating the rule regarding the holding of a scoring card, right? My reasoning is that the USSR was not forced to hold the card by the opponent - it brought it upon itself by playing Missile Envy. Is it correct?


 
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Robert Barnhart
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PSantos wrote:
Thanks.

But I was referring to arch vorigt's case of the USSR playing Missile Envy in AR7 in and getting a scoring card in exchange. The USSR loses for violating the rule regarding the holding of a scoring card, right? My reasoning is that the USSR was not forced to hold the card by the opponent - it brought it upon itself by playing Missile Envy. Is it correct?




No. The scoring happens. It's an event applicable to both.
 
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Pedro Estêvão
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Of course. I made a mess in describing arch vorigt's case. modest

His case is different. It's AR7. The US has two cards left, one of them being a scoring card. The USSR plays Missile Envy and exchanges it for the (non-scoring) card from the US hand. So now, the US player is left with Missile Envy and the scoring card in his hand for his final AR of the turn. What happens?

a) Is he forced to play Missile Envy - as per the card text - and thus lose the game due to holding a scoring card?
Or b) can he play the scoring card, thus "transferring" the obligation to play Missile Envy to the AR1 of the next turn (as is the case with Quagmire)?

Also, should b) be the correct answer, can the US player discard Missile Envy if he plays "Ask not what your country can do for you..." as a headline in the following turn?
 
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Alex Drazen
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(B) is correct in that case, but I've never heard the question about discarding an active ME to Ask Not, so I defer to those far more experienced than I on that one.
 
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Daniel Hogetoorn
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alexdrazen wrote:
(B) is correct in that case, but I've never heard the question about discarding an active ME to Ask Not, so I defer to those far more experiencedthan I on that one.


Yes, he is allowed to do so.
 
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arch vorict
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My bad!
Indeed the rules states that playing a scoring card msut be played and this rule have precedence over other text.
It is explained on the TS faq
http://www.gmtgames.com/nnts/FAQv5.pdf
 
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