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Subject: Location Of Meeple Supply/Stock rss

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Jam Rolypoly

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I know this is a minor point, but:

The rules should cover where a player's Supply/Stock of Meeples is stored during the game.

Normally, I would store any spare Meeples on my Faction Card as a convenient well-defined area on the table but, since that means VP for Valkeries, it's a habit I'd have to avoid for this game. I'd guess that would be true for many other people.

At the very least, it may be useful to include a line in any future versions of the rules to let players know that storing Meeples on their Faction Card isn't advised.
 
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Marty McFly
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The game setup image shows the players' meeples next to their faction cards.
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Rainer Ahlfors
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The rulebook contains a setup graphic which shows the meeples placed next to a player's faction card.

Edit: ninja'd
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Miles Wentland
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I think to avoid bogging down a rulebook with minutiae, the writer will omit such information, assuming that the player will know not to place their supply/stock of bits in area's that would give the bits an in game significance.
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Jam Rolypoly

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martidem wrote:
The game setup image shows the players' meeples next to their faction cards.
But the rulebook makes no mention as to why that might be the case. It could simply be how the layout was designed for the rulebook without taking into account that there's a good reason why the Meeples should not placed on the Faction Card.

For example, also on the Game Setup graphic, two of the Factions have been setup with 1 Ore, 2 Food and 3 Mana and the other 2 have 1 Ore, 2 Mana and 3 Food. Why? Any particular reason?

There have been so many rulebooks produced with errors in them that a 1st Edition 100% perfect rulebook is virtually unheard of, so it's natural to try and make sure that everything is clarified as much as possible as early as possible.
 
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Jam Rolypoly

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ArseFez wrote:
I think to avoid bogging down a rulebook with minutiae, the writer will omit such information, assuming that the player will know not to place their supply/stock of bits in area's that would give the bits an in game significance.
And how would a beginner player know that the Faction Card has any more significance than that discussed in the rules? You'd have to play with the Valkeries before you realised the significance, and you may have to play as the Valkeries to realise the error of your ways. I would automatically put my Meeples on the Faction Card as a common practice of mine, not realising that putting Meeples on the card can have special significance. If it's mentioned in the rules, then I'd be aware of the significance.

And if the matter is not covered in the rulebook, then someone is going to ask the question anyway, so either the rulebook gets updated or the information is included in a FAQ.

One of the things that the Rulebook doesn't cover is how the Faction Card special abilities interact with each other and the basic rules. There's going to be a lot of questions looking for clarification of these things, such as the question of whether the Orcs using Mana against the Elves after the War Dice are revealed counts as +1 or +2 to their War Total. (It's +1.) Some game players will always question exactly what the rules are meant to mean, and they'll also make the wrong assumptions, and they'll always get the rules wrong during the first couple of plays. The more the rules cover every situation, the easier it is to play the game the way it's meant to be played.
 
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Marty McFly
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JRtest wrote:
martidem wrote:
The game setup image shows the players' meeples next to their faction cards.
But the rulebook makes no mention as to why that might be the case. It could simply be how the layout was designed for the rulebook without taking into account that there's a good reason why the Meeples should not placed on the Faction Card.

I think you're getting too wrapped up in small details. There are a lot of games out there that say to take resources from a supply without specifically telling players exactly where they MUST place that supply on the table.

JRtest wrote:
For example, also on the Game Setup graphic, two of the Factions have been setup with 1 Ore, 2 Food and 3 Mana and the other 2 have 1 Ore, 2 Mana and 3 Food. Why? Any particular reason?

To demonstrate that you start with a total of 3 resources, but each player doesn't necessarily have to have the same starting resources.

JRtest wrote:
There have been so many rulebooks produced with errors in them that a 1st Edition 100% perfect rulebook is virtually unheard of, so it's natural to try and make sure that everything is clarified as much as possible as early as possible.

Agreed that an accurate rulebook is desired. But you can also get overly bogged down in details, which can become a distraction and make it more difficult to find the rules when searching through the rulebook.
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Marty McFly
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JRtest wrote:
One of the things that the Rulebook doesn't cover is how the Faction Card special abilities interact with each other and the basic rules.

And it shouldn't. To do so would create a convoluted rulebook that is significantly longer than it needs to be -- and one that would then need to be updated fully for each new expansion. The rulebooks job is to convey the rules, not discuss strategy in depth.

JRtest wrote:
such as the question of whether the Orcs using Mana against the Elves after the War Dice are revealed counts as +1 or +2 to their War Total. (It's +1.)

In my opinion, this is a perfect example of something that doesn't need to be explicitly called out in the rulebook. The Elves card says that opponents only get +1 in war when spending Mana. The Orc card says nothing about Mana always providing +2 in war. Your still at war until the totals are resolved, so Orc Mana would provide +1. There's no reason to call out this specific situation in the rulebook because all the relevant information is already covered on the faction cards.
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Jam Rolypoly

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martidem wrote:
There are a lot of games out there that say to take resources from a supply without specifically telling players exactly where they MUST place that supply on the table.
And this is a case of where players MUST NOT place their Meeples due to that location happening to mean something that isn't mentioned in the rules. A single line in the setup section would cover the situation; easy solution.

martidem wrote:
To demonstrate that you start with a total of 3 resources, but each player doesn't necessarily have to have the same starting resources.
But why those particular choices, and why do players on opposite sides of the table choose the same distribution? My point is that not everything you see in a rulebook is carefully thought out and players may miss the significance of the Meeples being placed to the side of the Faction Card, or, alternatively, they may read too much into the setup layout and think that the two possibilities for choosing Resources are somehow the best, or the best with those specific Factions.

martidem wrote:
Agreed that an accurate rulebook is desired. But you can also get overly bogged down in details, which can become a distraction and make it more difficult to find the rules when searching through the rulebook.
A single line in the Setup section would hardly be a distraction.
 
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Marty McFly
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JRtest wrote:
martidem wrote:
There are a lot of games out there that say to take resources from a supply without specifically telling players exactly where they MUST place that supply on the table.
And this is a case of where players MUST NOT place their Meeples due to that location happening to mean something that isn't mentioned in the rules. A single line in the setup section would cover the situation; easy solution.

I just don't see it as that big of a problem and something that warrants a line in the rulebook. The setup image covers it. If you've gotten into the habit of placing your meeples on your faction card (against what the setup image suggests), then you'll have to adapt when playing Valkyries. That's not the fault of the rulebook. Rules can't predict what every player may want to do and what preferences they may adopt.

JRtest wrote:
martidem wrote:
To demonstrate that you start with a total of 3 resources, but each player doesn't necessarily have to have the same starting resources.
But why those particular choices, and why do players on opposite sides of the table choose the same distribution? My point is that not everything you see in a rulebook is carefully thought out and players may miss the significance of the Meeples being placed to the side of the Faction Card, or, alternatively, they may read too much into the setup layout and think that the two possibilities for choosing Resources are somehow the best, or the best with those specific Factions.

Why start with certain resource levels? Because for my chosen strategy for this particular game, that's what I decided. You can't expect the rulebook to cover each and every strategy. But, what it does do is specifically suggest resource levels (totaling 6, not 3 as I erroneously stated above; my bad) for new players.

JRtest wrote:
martidem wrote:
Agreed that an accurate rulebook is desired. But you can also get overly bogged down in details, which can become a distraction and make it more difficult to find the rules when searching through the rulebook.
A single line in the Setup section would hardly be a distraction.

Very true. Except that you've also been suggesting that a "single line" be added for each faction ability against each other faction ability. And you've been suggesting that a single line be added to discuss specific strategy of placing starting resources for each faction. And more. That quickly becomes distracting.
 
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Jam Rolypoly

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martidem wrote:
not discuss strategy in depth.
This is not a question of strategy, it's a question of which rules apply. Do Faction Card rules always override the basic rules, is a particular rule a misprint, or is a particular rule overpowered and needs to be altered to balance the game. No strategy, just rules. These issues may not be placed in the basic rules, but they're going to appear in a FAQ. Don't think so? Go look at any Fantasy Flight game page and see how big their FAQ's tend to be.

martidem wrote:
In my opinion, this is a perfect example of something that doesn't need to be explicitly called out in the rulebook. The Elves card says that opponents only get +1 in war when spending Mana. The Orc card says nothing about Mana always providing +2 in war. Your still at war until the totals are resolved, so Orc Mana would provide +1. There's no reason to call out this specific situation in the rulebook because all the relevant information is already covered on the faction cards.
Actually this very situation was asked about and as a result of the answer, the text on the Orcs card was to be altered to allow for the possibility that the extra Mana may not always add 2 to their War Total.

Also, the rules do not say that "Your[sic] still at war until the totals are resolved". The rules say that, "After both players have set their War Die, they reveal them simultaneously. The highest War Total wins." These sentences don't even hint at the possibility that one player's total may change after the dice are revealed. Nor do they state when a War ends. The example provided in the rules, by using the sentence, "Immediately, Player B is considered the winner," strongly implies that when the dice are revealed the War is decided in that instant, which is not necessarily the case.
 
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Jam Rolypoly

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martidem wrote:
Very true. Except that you've also been suggesting that a "single line" be added for each faction ability against each other faction ability. And you've been suggesting that a single line be added to discuss specific strategy of placing starting resources for each faction. And more. That quickly becomes distracting.
I know you're being deliberately obtuse and deliberately misrepresenting what I've written. But, unfortunately for you, what I've written is visible for all to see.

All I've suggested is a single line in the Setup section that lets players know that they should not store their Meeples on the Faction Card as that can have significance in the game. Nothing else.

There's no suggestion of a single line per faction, nothing about strategies, and nothing more. I get that you disagree with me, but you don't have to try and warp what I've written. Go back to the OP and reread what I first said; it bears no resemblance to how you represent the situation in your last post.
 
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Marty McFly
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JRtest wrote:
There's no suggestion of a single line per faction


JRtest wrote:
One of the things that the Rulebook doesn't cover is how the Faction Card special abilities interact with each other and the basic rules.

I read this as a single line per faction/faction combination, given that the context is in relation to a specific Orcs vs. Elves example. I'm not trying to be obtuse, nor am I trying to misrepresent you. I'm simply responding to what I've interpreted you to have said.
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Miles Wentland
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JRtest wrote:
martidem wrote:
Very true. Except that you've also been suggesting that a "single line" be added for each faction ability against each other faction ability. And you've been suggesting that a single line be added to discuss specific strategy of placing starting resources for each faction. And more. That quickly becomes distracting.
I know you're being deliberately obtuse and deliberately misrepresenting what I've written. But, unfortunately for you, what I've written is visible for all to see.

All I've suggested is a single line in the Setup section that lets players know that they should not store their Meeples on the Faction Card as that can have significance in the game. Nothing else.

There's no suggestion of a single line per faction, nothing about strategies, and nothing more. I get that you disagree with me, but you don't have to try and warp what I've written. Go back to the OP and reread what I first said; it bears no resemblance to how you represent the situation in your last post.


No ones being deliberately obtuse nor deliberately misrepresenting what you've written.

Some of us (me) however are deliberately trying to politely reply to the OP instead of saying something like "Use Some Common Sense"
 
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Rainer Ahlfors
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This all seems like a pointless argument to me ...

I agree that storing the extra meeples on your faction card is a bad idea ... IF you are playing the Valkyries AND you choose NOT to read any of the Valkyries' special powers when beginning the game.

In all other circumstances, it really doesn't matter.

What if you are playing the game in a bumpy or unstable environment? Laying your meeples down might not be a bad idea ...
UNLESS you have ruins AND you chose NOT to read about how ruins work.

There are a lot of things that could be put in the rule book. Reading the rules before playing the game is super important, yet no game encourages you to do so. Removing components from shrink/bags when setting up the game is often crucial to game play, yet no game makes mention of it.

Would this particular instance be addressed with a single line in the rulebook? Certainly. But is such special mention warranted or remotely necessary? Not at all.

While arguing that mentioning certain things in the rulebook might reduce or eliminate confusion, I must add that adding too many superfluous things will cause more confusion.

You were confused. You figured it out. Problem solved.

This goes to prove that the special mention in the rulebook wasn't necessary after all ...
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Rainer Ahlfors
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ArseFez wrote:
I think to avoid bogging down a rulebook with minutiae, the writer will omit such information, assuming that the player will know not to place their supply/stock of bits in area's that would give the bits an in game significance.


QFT
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Raithyn
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ArseFez wrote:
JRtest wrote:
martidem wrote:
Very true. Except that you've also been suggesting that a "single line" be added for each faction ability against each other faction ability. And you've been suggesting that a single line be added to discuss specific strategy of placing starting resources for each faction. And more. That quickly becomes distracting.
I know you're being deliberately obtuse and deliberately misrepresenting what I've written. But, unfortunately for you, what I've written is visible for all to see.

All I've suggested is a single line in the Setup section that lets players know that they should not store their Meeples on the Faction Card as that can have significance in the game. Nothing else.

There's no suggestion of a single line per faction, nothing about strategies, and nothing more. I get that you disagree with me, but you don't have to try and warp what I've written. Go back to the OP and reread what I first said; it bears no resemblance to how you represent the situation in your last post.


No ones being deliberately obtuse nor deliberately misrepresenting what you've written.

Some of us (me) however are deliberately trying to politely reply to the OP instead of saying something like "Use Some Common Sense"


Huh. And here I was thinking "use some common sense" is the politest reply I can come up with.

The faction cards act as an extension of the rulebook. This is true in many games of this size. I like that the rules are fairly general and leave out details I do not need to consider if specific factions are not in play. Reproducing every faction with strategy hints or even just adding a FAQ (although how would you decide which details to leave out?) would add a significant amount of text to the rules and, as a result, size to the box.
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RIK FONTANA
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Marty, you've hit it right on the head.... with answers that seem direct & obvious; not obtuse. Some people seem to relish going out-of-their-way to look for possible anomolys; even when not necessary.

Jam, I don't mean to be critical: but just the sheer number of New Rules Questions you have posted is kind of an indication that you are over-thinking this stuff. Maybe our group is just very easy-going and common sense in it's approach, but after several game plays, we have not had One issue come up yet!
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