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Subject: Would you be interested in Robo Rally Rebooted rss

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Chris
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DaviddesJ wrote:
As a research project, you could search for an integer less than 3.
Maybe. How would -1 work?
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David desJardins
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LetsGetTrivial wrote:
How would -1 work?

That would definitely make for a shorter game, because everyone would start off having tagged all of the flags (and then some).
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D. Barrera
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Ok just to make things clear. I replied to the poll by saying I would prefer the theme to stay close to the original BUT

BUT!!!!

I'd prefer to have a retheming and make the game have some proper support in the way of expansions with extra boards and extra crazyness in general than have a game like WotC has now, just a base set with so much old material unreleased.
 
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Garcian Smith
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I would be on board if the complaints I have with the current version are addressed. The first is that the two driving forces with the game: racing and combat are forces that work against each other. The more you spend damaging or getting damaged, the more it works against the racing part of game, getting to all the checkpoints as fast as you can. I'm not sure how to fix this, but it's a design issue. The second is that the game becomes radically different with less players. If you have 8 players, it's going to be crazy insane with players that will ram into each other a ton, versus 2 players where it will likely not happen. This also makes it so different player ranges will be suitable for different maps.

The third is that it just takes so long for the game to move along at a decent pace. More people means more cards to check who goes first during resolution. It also means more interaction meaning more damage and such, which then makes it harder to get to checkpoints, which means progress really slows down. The more interactive the game becomes, the slower players actually are to getting to the end. But the less interactive the game is, it makes it less of a reason to play together. And the game can also suffer from a runaway leader who just can't be stopped. And when that happens, the winner is pretty much already decided.

In some ways, King of Tokyo is similar to Robo Rally, but it does things better. It's similar because it is a form of a racing game where you are all racing to get 20 points before anyone else. The difference is unlike RR, interacting (or hitting) your opponent is constant no matter how many players are playing KoT. With RR, hitting your opponent is only more likely to happen when there are more players. While you can also win by destroying all other in RR, it is extremely unlikely to happen, whereas it is definitely possible in KoT.

My thoughts.
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David desJardins
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Revelade wrote:
The first is that the two driving forces with the game: racing and combat are forces that work against each other. The more you spend damaging or getting damaged, the more it works against the racing part of game, getting to all the checkpoints as fast as you can. I'm not sure how to fix this, but it's a design issue.

I don't understand this remark. Why isn't this good? The whole point is that taking damage also slows you down, either because you have less card selection and it's harder to move, or because you have to shut down to repair damage.

Most other games don't work well with any number of players from 2 to 8, so I don't really think that needs to be a design goal, either. Obviously the more you can accommodate different numbers of players, the better, but it's a lot harder to find good 5-6 player games than good 2-3 player games, so it makes sense to me to primarily target larger numbers of players.

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In some ways, King of Tokyo is similar to Robo Rally, but it does things better.

But RoboRally has about a thousand times more skill....
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Richard Sampson
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Revelade wrote:
The third is that it just takes so long for the game to move along at a decent pace. More people means more cards to check who goes first during resolution.
Just a comment, but you do know you don't have to check priority unless there is a conflict. Typically everyone just moves their pieces in unison. In my games, a conflict happens every once in a while, but its not that common, maybe once every few turns depending on the number of players.

Also I feel based on your comments that Roborally may just not be your game. It has flaws, but the chaos is a major selling point. I don't think I have ever thought of it as a racing game because that is such a minor aspect of what I love about it. For me Roborally is a puzzle game filled with chaos and randomness. To call it a racing game and focus on that aspect would be like calling Cosmic Encounter a dudes on a map game. Sure they both have those elements at their core, but that isn't why people play them.
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ras2124 wrote:
Revelade wrote:
The third is that it just takes so long for the game to move along at a decent pace. More people means more cards to check who goes first during resolution.
Just a comment, but you do know you don't have to check priority unless there is a conflict. Typically everyone just moves their pieces in unison. In my games, a conflict happens every once in a while, but its not that common, maybe once every few turns depending on the number of players.

Also I feel based on your comments that Roborally may just not be your game. It has flaws, but the chaos is a major selling point. I don't think I have ever thought of it as a racing game because that is such a minor aspect of what I love about it. For me Roborally is a puzzle game filled with chaos and randomness. To call it a racing game and focus on that aspect would be like calling Cosmic Encounter a dudes on a map game. Sure they both have those elements at their core, but that isn't why people play them.

One elegant solution to this that I heard is that one person is the "priority player" and everyone takes actions in clockwise order. Then at the next turn, priority passes to the next player. I know this is heresy to some players, but this is a variant that I've heard suggested for similar games that keeps everything moving pretty quickly and smoothly and is very easy to understand.
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Barry Figrim
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I'd definitely be interested in an updated version. As you said, it's a great game, but the mechanics are 20 years old, and you could make some improvements to help the overall flow of the game.
 
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Randy Pacetti
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I love the first edition of the game, and have most of the expansions. I regularly run it at local game conventions. I have played the reboot, but I generally prefer the original rules, and I have won some reboot players over to the vintage version as well.

I didn't buy the second edition of Robo-Rally. I also didn't buy the new version of Wiz-War, even though the earlier version is another of my favorites. I believe that if it isn't broken, don't fix it. I did buy the new version of Tales of the Arabian Nights, despite owning the old edition, because I felt that it cleaned some things up and had some nice components.

In order for me to buy a new edition of Robo-Rally, I would have to be convinced that it was actually better, and that it didn't mess with things that I know and love. If it changed the mechanics significantly but was still a good game, re-theming it might actually be a plus for me.

Thanks for creating one of my favorites.
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RoboRally is one of my favorite games ever - perhaps even *the* favorite.

But I am skeptical. I have seen too many "new editions" and "revisions" that have completely sucked to get enthusiastic about *any* reboot of *any* game that I already love.

So many great games have been dumbed down and made less interesting, less elegant, less fun in "undated, improved" editions. So many games have had expansions that jumped the shark.

I like RoboRally just the way it is. I'd be happy to see new boards and new options. And I'd be happy to see some of the older ones reprinted.

Like many RR enthusiasts, I've designed several of my own original boards, including new board elements, and a whole new set of another 26 options.

As for re-theming, what else is there besides robots that move around and are programmed? In general, I don't really care what the theme of a game is, but please avoid ones that don't fit the mechanics at all.

I have never been bothered by the downtime in this game, not by the reshuffling. I think that people whine far too much about these things. Really, you hate shuffling that much? You hate sitting and not moving your cards around while other people program? OK, I'll tell you what, since you find these things such hateful chores, you can go scrub the toilet, and I'll shuffle the cards for you.
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Phil just said the things that need to be said.
Thanks.
I just want MOAR options and MOAR boards. If you change some rules, fine. just makke that 12x12 grid and similar enough options to be backwards/forward compatible. I'd love to play new rules on old boards or vice-versa.
Also: I HATE the new art on the "Avalon Hill" edition. The old computer chip programming cards and options from 2nd edition are beautiful in comparison.
I hope you can get the rights to the name and theme. Please find a better publisher. The components, aside from the plastic flags, are as awful as the art in the new copies.
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Sebastian Zarzycki
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For those trying to come up with new designs for reboot or doubting the greatness of new edition...

Guys! Guys, guys, guys.

This is Richard Garfield we're talking about.
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Mark McEvoy
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rattkin wrote:
For those trying to come up with new designs for reboot or doubting the greatness of new edition...

Guys! Guys, guys, guys.

This is Richard Garfield we're talking about.

When you blindly trust someone trying to improve on his own legacy to not lose sight if what made the original so beloved...

...that's how The Phantom Menace happened.

That's how Ths Godfather Part III happened.
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James Williams
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rattkin wrote:
For those trying to come up with new designs for reboot or doubting the greatness of new edition...

Guys! Guys, guys, guys.

This is Richard Garfield we're talking about.

Yes. And Richard Garfield himself is asking if we'd like to see that new edition using a poll with a fairly narrow focus.

Im just trying to be vocal about what I like and don't like about current and previous editions of RoboRally. I'd be happy to have more boards and options. The rules I know have never seemed to require updating.
With enough rule changes, this new edition would be a different game. That's fine too. If it's good, I'll buy it. If it's bad, I will spend my money elsewhere.
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I played a 7-player game of RoboRally this weekend. It was a blast. I would love to see it reprinted. This game is classic large-scale chaos and fun. Plus, the game could use a touch-up, as Richard Garfield acknowledged. A couple of the rules and mechanics feel like they could be improved with a few adjustments based on years of experience with the game. The game lacks a good catchup mechanic and runaway victories are possible and not that fun for the leader doing their thing off on the other side of the board. It's the problem Mario Kart solves with golden mushrooms and blue shells. Also the components could use a few improvements. The biggest one being the walls on the grids that are so indistinct that they are easy to miss.

Programmable robots in a BattleBots style maze seems like such a perfect theme to fit this game's mechanics, but who knows, maybe it would be equally or more fun with some other theme like pirates sailing around. ("Hard to starrrboarrrd, yarrr!")

RoboRallyReboot!
 
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Garcian Smith
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I don't understand this remark. Why isn't this good? The whole point is that taking damage also slows you down, either because you have less card selection and it's harder to move, or because you have to shut down to repair damage.
It isn't good because you have two very opposing elements in a game that work against each other. Racing is about getting from point A to B as fast as you can. Combat not only gets you closer to dying, but it also screws up the control of the robot. This makes that goal of getting from point A to B much more work to do. In contrast you can hit people in King of Tokyo to try to eventually kill them. The difference is that no matter how much health you have in KoT, whether it's 10 or 1, the rate in which you get VPs is the same. The games doesn't "slow down".

Quote:
Most other games don't work well with any number of players from 2 to 8, so I don't really think that needs to be a design goal, either. Obviously the more you can accommodate different numbers of players, the better, but it's a lot harder to find good 5-6 player games than good 2-3 player games, so it makes sense to me to primarily target larger numbers of players
This isn't the case of any game being able to work 2-8 or not. The thing with Robo Rally is that the number of interactions that happen in a game is drastically changed with the number of people that play. Interactions ultimately slow the game down if it wasn't slow already from having to check what everyone does.

Quote:
To call it a racing game and focus on that aspect would be like calling Cosmic Encounter a dudes on a map game.
But it is a racing game. The title Robo Rally says it is. Rallying is a form of racing.

I'm not saying it's a bad game per say. I'm just saying that the genre of racing is one where the goal is to get from point A to B as fast as you can. The genre of combat is where you are trying to spend your resources trying to beat your opponent, usually by destroying them. One of these genres is about not interacting, while the other totally is. They have opposite goals. It's more a design thought.

I just think that in the end people that want to win just don't want to interact at all and just go from A to B as fast as they can. However the game is marketed as a combat-filled, deathfest which actually makes it harder to get to that goal the more player engage in that aspect of the game.

I would either make it so that being able to destroy others is a more attainable victory option or make it so that damaged/being damaged doesn't slow you to a halt and make the game drag on and on. These are my opinions.
 
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Revelade wrote:
However the game is marketed as a combat-filled, deathfest

I don't think so. And who cares what it's "marketed as", anyway? The game is what it is. What people say about it makes no difference at all.

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I would either make it so that being able to destroy others is a more attainable victory option or make it so that damaged/being damaged doesn't slow you to a halt and make the game drag on and on.

Being damaged doesn't make the game drag on, you either die or shut down. Limping along with a 5 card hand isn't going to win the game.
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Drew Folta
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One nice thing about the "robot" theme is that it keeps the game from being too morally "dark". The damage and "death" are a major element of the game, and that this happens to robots without a nervous system means that pain and loss aren't underlying the theme. Just repair or respawn! These are even part of the mechanics of the game and are completely thematically consistent.

I'm not actually _against_ pain and loss in games. Other games have them and I play them, often rather enthusiastically They are, after all, just games. However, one thing I like about RoboRally's robot theme is that I can blow up my friends (and be targeted and destroyed by them) _completely_ lightheartedly.
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Revelade wrote:
I would be on board if the complaints I have with the current version are addressed. The first is that the two driving forces with the game: racing and combat are forces that work against each other. The more you spend damaging or getting damaged, the more it works against the racing part of game, getting to all the checkpoints as fast as you can. I'm not sure how to fix this, but it's a design issue.

Actually you just perfectly described exactly what the game is. So, I don't see a problem nor a need to fix it. I bought the game and every expansion for it from 1994 to 1998. I never got the second edition stuff.

Revelade wrote:
It isn't good because you have two very opposing elements in a game that work against each other. Racing is about getting from point A to B as fast as you can. Combat not only gets you closer to dying, but it also screws up the control of the robot. This makes that goal of getting from point A to B much more work to do. In contrast you can hit people in King of Tokyo to try to eventually kill them. The difference is that no matter how much health you have in KoT, whether it's 10 or 1, the rate in which you get VPs is the same. The games doesn't "slow down".

Try staying in Tokyo with 1 health and see how fast you win the game. I would argue that it does slow down for you because at 1 health, you've either got to start rolling hearts (and not doing all the other stuff), or you're dead and out of the game next time the player in Tokyo takes a turn, or if you're in Tokyo, when the player to your left takes a turn. I don't see a difference in this or Roborally. In both games you have to heal or repair when you are severely damaged.
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Do what you have to do to make this happen! FYI, I just want to say that Netrunner is my favorite game and I hope this goes well.
 
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Murr wrote:
Actually you just perfectly described exactly what the game is. So, I don't see a problem nor a need to fix it. I bought the game and every expansion for it from 1994 to 1998. I never got the second edition stuff.
Just to clarify:
The second edition is actually the copy released in 1995 with all of the expansions. The newest, or third, edition was released in 2005 by Avalon Hill and is widely regarded as a very poor version in comparison.
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David desJardins
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It's pretty easy to just design and/or print your own boards, so that's the least valuable aspect to focus on. I know I've got more boards than I can play anyway. It's tweaks and refinements to the play that would be really interesting.
 
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doctor poo wrote:
Murr wrote:
Actually you just perfectly described exactly what the game is. So, I don't see a problem nor a need to fix it. I bought the game and every expansion for it from 1994 to 1998. I never got the second edition stuff.
Just to clarify:
The second edition is actually the copy released in 1995 with all of the expansions. The newest, or third, edition was released in 2005 by Avalon Hill and is widely regarded as a very poor version in comparison.


This is the one I have, and I bought all the expansions separately as they came out. Armed & Dangerous, Crash & Burn, Grand Prix, and Radioactive. I didn't get King of the Hill. But I do see where WOC released a 2nd edition the following year, so yes, I should have said I never got the AH stuff

RoboRally
Wizards of the Coast edition
Publisher: Wizards of the Coast

Artist: Phil Foglio
Year: 1994
Product Code: WOC 5001

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drewfish wrote:
One nice thing about the "robot" theme is that it keeps the game from being too morally "dark". The damage and "death" are a major element of the game, and that this happens to robots without a nervous system means that pain and loss aren't underlying the theme. Just repair or respawn! These are even part of the mechanics of the game and are completely thematically consistent.

I'm not actually _against_ pain and loss in games. Other games have them and I play them, often rather enthusiastically They are, after all, just games. However, one thing I like about RoboRally's robot theme is that I can blow up my friends (and be targeted and destroyed by them) _completely_ lightheartedly.


This was my initial reason to try this game. I wanted a game without blood or magic so my wife would not be offended. And she liked it, but I liked it more, but not for these reasons.

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HanClinto wrote:
ras2124 wrote:
Revelade wrote:
The third is that it just takes so long for the game to move along at a decent pace. More people means more cards to check who goes first during resolution.
Just a comment, but you do know you don't have to check priority unless there is a conflict. Typically everyone just moves their pieces in unison. In my games, a conflict happens every once in a while, but its not that common, maybe once every few turns depending on the number of players.

Also I feel based on your comments that Roborally may just not be your game. It has flaws, but the chaos is a major selling point. I don't think I have ever thought of it as a racing game because that is such a minor aspect of what I love about it. For me Roborally is a puzzle game filled with chaos and randomness. To call it a racing game and focus on that aspect would be like calling Cosmic Encounter a dudes on a map game. Sure they both have those elements at their core, but that isn't why people play them.

One elegant solution to this that I heard is that one person is the "priority player" and everyone takes actions in clockwise order. Then at the next turn, priority passes to the next player. I know this is heresy to some players, but this is a variant that I've heard suggested for similar games that keeps everything moving pretty quickly and smoothly and is very easy to understand.
Far from elegant IMO. Knowing that moves always take place in the order move 3 > move 2 > move 1 allows for much better understanding and planning than trying to wrap your head around a constantly-changing player order.
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