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Subject: Rule questions. rss

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Sebastian Zarzycki
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- we had one runner staggered and a crossfire event saying that at the start of turn, runner must discard a card ad get 1 Nuyen. Staggered runners also draw cards at the start of the turn. Which goes first?

- do the order of damage symbols matter and or can be split?. if I have an obstacle with (in order): red, green, 2 and I have two cards - one dealing red and 2 and the other green, can I play them to defeat the obstacle? What if I had one card with red and the other with 2, green (not green, 2) - will these defeat it as well?

- There is a card that has ability when flipped, that is blue, saying that each runner facing blue has to do something. Do I resolve the flipped first (so if I'm Mage I don't face that blue yet) or do I first face and only then resolve flipped ability?

- there was obstacle having a special ability when flipped, a comma and crossfire level 2. Does it trigger when flipped AND crossfire level 2 or when flipped OR crossfire level 2? This would mean that even if it doesn't trigger at first when flipped, it could trigger possibly later, should the crossfire level increases.

- some crossfire events have text without icon on top. Are these one-time on enter abilities to resolve?

- When there's take damage phase, do all obstacles attack runners they face, or just obstacles facing current runner attack him?

- aren't drekkin Elves a bit underpowered? :) 4 hp is awfully low. It would seem that tanks are a necessity, especially to easily survive abort rounds ( they just need to survive one wave)

- Is there any way to increase your max HP during the game? There are max level hp markers , but they're kinda redundant, because the max level is printed on the hp track anyway.

- if you become staggers, can you draw / buy cards during the turn you become staggered or it applies immediately?

- isn't the staggered a bit too mean? with one card the runner is usually useless anyway, and if he got damage, then it means something is facing him, so he will go critical next round (especially with 2 players)

- The abort rules say: "If runner goes critical during draw new crossfire, start abort run with starting player. Otherwise, finish the turn that resulted in runner going critical and then start abort round with the runner left to the critical runner". I don't get the "finish the turn part". Once runner goes critical he's immediately out, so what's there to finish?

- what is the significance of 2nd role when playing with 2? Is there anything that refers to it? When I deal obstacles, do I only match the color of my main role, or look for both?

- what's the significance of starting runner if order changes after each scene? is it just a designation for player managing the game components?
 
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Richard Herrera
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1. Haven't had this come up for me yet, but I would think the discard would happen first. When in doubt, I say favor the runners since they get hosed enough.

2.Yes, they can be split. You just have to be sure that you can cover the needed damage.

3. Flipped abilities are resolved when flipped. In this case (if you are still putting out cards), I would resolve the flipped ability there and then.

4. Both conditions have to be met to activate. If there are not at least 2+ crossfire cards when flipped, the ability never triggers.

5. If there is no symbol, they are one-time effects.

6. The obstacles attack only the runner they are currently facing, not all of them unless the card says to do so.

7. They do have low hp, but that is why it is good to have a well-balanced team to keep them alive.

8. You have to use karma to buy abilities to increase your hp. It's on the stickers.

9. You immediately become staggered and have to shuffle your hand, but you can still buy cards from the black market if you have nuyen.

10. It is harsh, but you have to remember that thematically, you guys are trying to break into a corporation. You are going to have high-tech security trying to stop the threat through any means necessary. If you were bleeding after being shot, it's hard to hold your weapon. The game is balanced to give you a small break at 2 players (hence why it doesn't all go to hell in the first 2 turns).

11. If you have a cover-fire or doc wagon card, you can heal the runner and get them out of critical.

12. You look for both. If the first card is black and you're primary is red and green, whomever has black gets that card.

13. It is meant to designate when a new crossfire card comes out.
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Sebastian Zarzycki
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eggroll20xd6 wrote:
1. Haven't had this come up for me yet, but I would think the discard would happen first. When in doubt, I say favor the runners since they get hosed enough.
Actually, I've found a rule in the book. Whenever something triggers at the same time, current runner chooses the order. (page 10: timing of abilities / effects).

eggroll20xd6 wrote:

2.Yes, they can be split. You just have to be sure that you can cover the needed damage.
Are you sure about that? I thought that the damage from one card is done (applied) atomically at one time, so if you have (green, 1) card, but the obstacle card has (green, red, 1), then you would have to play that card, plus red, plus something else. But really not sure about this.

eggroll20xd6 wrote:

7. They do have low hp, but that is why it is good to have a well-balanced team to keep them alive.
We were playing just 2 elves, and it felt like we just have no chance at all.

eggroll20xd6 wrote:

9. You immediately become staggered and have to shuffle your hand, but you can still buy cards from the black market if you have nuyen.
Really? The rules say that if you're staggered, you don't draw 2 cards and you don't buy from market.

eggroll20xd6 wrote:

11. If you have a cover-fire or doc wagon card, you can heal the runner and get them out of critical.
Let me quote again:
Quote:
"- The abort rules say: "If runner goes critical during draw new crossfire, start abort run with starting player. Otherwise, finish the turn that resulted in runner going critical and then start abort round with the runner left to the critical runner". I don't get the "finish the turn part". Once runner goes critical he's immediately out, so what's there to finish?"
If I got critical (usually during take damage), then my turn is immediately over. I don't do any other step, I cannot play cards. Noone can get me out of critical ("there is no recovery from critical, as rules say"). So there's nothing to be done during that turn. That's why I'm wondering what "finish the turn" really means here.

And lastly, another question, that came up after reading the faq online (http://www.shadowruntabletop.com/shadowrun-crossfire-game/):

Quote:
Q: I’ve just ended a turn with no obstacles in play, so I remove the current Crossfire card from play. Now I draw another one, right?
A: No. You only draw a new Crossfire card at the start of a round of play. Depending on when you removed the current Crossfire card, it might still be several turns before you draw a new one.
This isn't really in line with what I know, at least when playing Crossfire. Whenever there's no obstacles in play at the end of player's turn, the Scene ends. Players get healed 1 HP, Crossfire event is removed, players get to buy cards from market, next scene begins. I was under impression that this round ends and new Scene starts with new round (the same happens in abort, right? player gets critical, we restart the round, playing the abort run round?), but I could imagine, that, sure, we can continue the round, just with new scene. But even, then, with 4 players, I don't get the "it might still be several turns before you draw a new one" - it doesn't make sense, why "several"?

Thanks for all answers, this is much appreciated.
 
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Scott Smart

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1. Yes, simultaneous things are the current runner's choice on what order they occur. However, as you've stated, giving a staggered runner a nuyen really doesn't matter unless he draws Black Market Contract, which would let him buy a card. It's stated that they can buy, draw, and play cards if a card says they can (so Coordinated attack works for instance).

2. rattkin, there is a clear example in the rulebook where they split the damage on the card. Each card's effect happens when you play it, but the damage is basically a pool. The only exceptions are the * effect ones as those effects happen when you're applying damage. The only thing you can't do is split a card's damage across multiple obstacles. So, if you have a card like Deathtouch, reveal 3 blue cards (so you have 3 colorless & 2 blue), but only need 2 colorless and 1 blue to defeat an obstacle, those 1 colorless and 1 blue are wasted.

3. This is why you flip each obstacle over one at a time. You flip up an obstacle and IMMEDIATELY do what the card says, checking if its effect triggers, before drawing the next obstacle. So any card that has a flip effect (or crossfire level flip effect) goes off immediately. Do whatever it says right then.

4. That means that the flipped ability only triggers if the crossfire level is equal to or greater than the number listed on the obstacle. It is the same for the obstacles that only have a crossfire number, though once it hits that number (say the crossfire level goes from 2 to 3 and you have the blue obstacle that says {3} When this obstacle attacks it heals one level. that effect will trigger this round but not on the previous round when the level was only 2).

5. Yes, those non-iconned crossfire effects are one-time effects. The infinity symbol on the top part means that it will be an effect that triggers on each player's turn for the entire round. The bomb icon means it goes off only if it hits the discard (so try hard to finish that Scene so it goes away).

6. Obstacles only attack the player they are facing and only on that player's turn. The only exceptions to this are the 4 that do damage to the specific role as well (if they aren't already facing that role).

7. Playing only 2 Elves is an invitation to disaster as the 4 HP is a major issue. However, if you play a 4 player game like I do, my one elf has only gotten staggered during normal rounds (so not during abort rounds) twice in 10 games. They are certainly playable, but they can't do it alone. Considering they make awesome mages with their 4 hand size and 4 nuyen, that makes perfect sense. You wouldn't expect a party of 2 mages to last long in an RPG, would you?

The rest. Staggered should be painful, but it isn't the end of the world. The rest of your team has an entire round to defeat any obstacles facing him/her. No, you can't buy cards when you are staggered at all, and you don't draw a card until the start of your turn. However, you have access to your entire deck which means you can get back your best card you bought from the black market. Also, if a teammate heals you at any point during the round, you'll immediately draw 2 cards. Those healing cards are great. With 2 players, when you are matching that first obstacle, you match either role (so if you're the Mage and Face you would match on either a Blue or Red obstacle). Do keep in mind that you only match on the first obstacle each scene. The rest go around in clockwise order. The only fixed player is the first player (and the Client in Extraction mission). Everyone gets the same number of turns in a game (until the end if you win obviously). See below.

Another couple of tips: You only draw a Crossfire card at the start of the first player's turn in the round. This means that if he/she defeats the last obstacle on his/her turn, all other players take a turn during the next scene without a Crossfire card until it is the first player's turn again. That's a huge part of the strategy of the game, obviously bigger with 3 or 4 players, because the more turns you have while only facing 1 Crossfire card means possibly not putting any into the discard, thus the Crossfire level doesn't increase. Buy assist cards! They are few and far between, but they can make a massive difference in winning and losing.
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Sebastian Zarzycki
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Thanks for all answers. We've played it all correctly. Still, got hopelessly crushed. I don't think this game should be played with 2...
 
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Matthew Vanek
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I play solo with two runners exclusively. It works out fine. It just takes a while to get the flow of the game.
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Lonnie H
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Zxqueb wrote:
I play solo with two runners exclusively. It works out fine. It just takes a while to get the flow of the game.
I would like to second this.....my group has played many games two player and won most of them.

Two elves may be a problem. Our parties have usually included a Troll SSam, and Human Mage.

With 2 player, it is a huge advantage in Crossfire missions to not draw Crossfire Events for the first 2 rounds. Most of the time we are starting the second scene with a Crossfire level of 0, since we can usually kill the two obstacles by the third round, and so the 1 drawn Crossfire Event will be place under the Event deck (so the level stays at 0).

A big thing that helped us was to buy as many Black Market cards and as often as you can......sure the high price cards are wonderful, but the lower priced cards allow you to kill stuff now....which gets you more money.
 
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Sebastian Zarzycki
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Lonster wrote:

Two elves may be a problem. Our parties have usually included a Troll SSam, and Human Mage.
Most of our games was SS and Mage, we've tried the setup you've mentioned, too.

Lonster wrote:

With 2 player, it is a huge advantage in Crossfire missions to not draw Crossfire Events for the first 2 rounds. Most of the time we are starting the second scene with a Crossfire level of 0, since we can usually kill the two obstacles by the third round, and so the 1 drawn Crossfire Event will be place under the Event deck (so the level stays at 0).
Yes, we were doing that. We almost always entered Scene 2 with 0 crossfire, and sometimes Scene 3 with just 1. Didn't help much.

Lonster wrote:

A big thing that helped us was to buy as many Black Market cards and as often as you can......sure the high price cards are wonderful, but the lower priced cards allow you to kill stuff now....which gets you more money.
We've tried that, but to no avail. Hard obstacles sometimes have 6 or 7 colorless damage - it's too much for 2 players. You gotta have cards that will allow you to skip 1-2 levels.

My problem with Scene 3, is that you'll get 4 obstacles, 2 per each. usually one of them hard. Usually the will hit for 3, combined, sometimes 4 or more. This basically means, that no matter who you have, you will last 2 rounds tops. Even if you somehow manage to kill one of each (or two from one), you're entering staggered next turn (healing didn't help us much here). When you're staggered in 2 player game, you're useless (with just one card) and the game is done. Even if the other player has slightly more points, on abort round he will get 2-3 obstacles, hitting for 3-5 total. Again, even if he manage to kill one, he will still go staggered.

I don't know, I just can't see it, looking at numbers. It's not even the hand management or decisions, it's base the game mechanics that works very much against you in this mode.

How do you guys win or even abort during Scene 3? I'd like to learn the strategy.


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Lonnie H
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rattkin wrote:

We've tried that, but to no avail. Hard obstacles sometimes have 6 or 7 colorless damage - it's too much for 2 players. You gotta have cards that will allow you to skip 1-2 levels.

My problem with Scene 3, is that you'll get 4 obstacles, 2 per each. usually one of them hard. Usually the will hit for 3, combined, sometimes 4 or more. This basically means, that no matter who you have, you will last 2 rounds tops. Even if you somehow manage to kill one of each (or two from one), you're entering staggered next turn (healing didn't help us much here). When you're staggered in 2 player game, you're useless (with just one card) and the game is done. Even if the other player has slightly more points, on abort round he will get 2-3 obstacles, hitting for 3-5 total. Again, even if he manage to kill one, he will still go staggered.

I don't know, I just can't see it, looking at numbers. It's not even the hand management or decisions, it's base the game mechanics that works very much against you in this mode.

How do you guys win or even abort during Scene 3? I'd like to learn the strategy.
Sebastian, I can feel your pain. We just played two games with four players where one we were able to abort and the other was a loss.

Ok, back to your question about surviving scene three in a two player mission.....sounds like you are doing the right things to get there, but just having a hard time finishing it off. Sometimes you will get brutal obstacles and/or events, but even so you should be able to win pretty regularly.....or at least we have been able to (we have been able to win 4 times with no aborts or losses).

These maybe things that you are already doing, but here is what has worked for us.......So back to the setup that you laid out, each of the runners are facing a hard and a normal obs. In general, if you can take out one or both of the normal obs in the first round of the scene, you will have earned some good money to be able to buy some decent cards that can help you stall damage from the hard obs as you gradually cut them down. Also if one player can take down an obs then it is very important for them to buy cards that can "assist" the next runner as they hopefully finish off the last obstacle.

Hopefully that helps......but sometimes you do get some brutal combinations of hard obs and events.....on the bright side, it sounds like you are due some easier shadow runs from the random mission generator gods.
 
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Sebastian Zarzycki
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Lonster wrote:


These maybe things that you are already doing, but here is what has worked for us.......So back to the setup that you laid out, each of the runners are facing a hard and a normal obs. In general, if you can take out one or both of the normal obs in the first round of the scene, you will have earned some good money to be able to buy some decent cards that can help you stall damage from the hard obs as you gradually cut them down. Also if one player can take down an obs then it is very important for them to buy cards that can "assist" the next runner as they hopefully finish off the last obstacle.
Before we start Scene 3, we use they money we had to buy more cards to hand to be prepared for Scene 3. This means we start Scene 3 with no nuyen. Killing 2 easy obstacles in one round would be awesome but we never did that, especially if hard obstacles bring in some crippling abilities. If we kill one, then we have, say on average, 4 nuyen, which means usually just one card. I agree about the importance of assist cards, but somehow, we never had enough of them in BM during our games.

I'm beginning to think that maybe Mage/SS isn't the good combo for 2 players. Mage cards that rely on the cost but are very swingy, as 7 cards in your deck have cost 1. You have to check your discard to calculate what you can expect. The other one that rely on blue cards can also be problematic, because it works best only at the beginning, when you have 4 mana in deck. Later on, you dilute your deck with other colors (because you have to) and so this card becomes less powerful. I'll try Decker/SS next time.
 
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Scott Smart

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Wait Lonster, you're saying you're 4-0-0? In Shadowrun Crossfire? Are you 100% sure you're playing the game right and completely (ie haven't removed a bunch of cards or started with an upgrade)? The game is so far from that kind of cakewalk. It's hard enough to get to a 50% win percentage as you keep going and upgrading. I mean my 4-player party threw up its hands and quit a game in Scene 1 because I was going to have a staggered character, and they were at 10 Nuyen so it's a horrible idea to successfully abort (your payout for a success drops a point). Scene 1, for crying out loud.
 
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Lonnie H
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kysmart wrote:
Wait Lonster, you're saying you're 4-0-0? In Shadowrun Crossfire? Are you 100% sure you're playing the game right and completely (ie haven't removed a bunch of cards or started with an upgrade)? The game is so far from that kind of cakewalk. It's hard enough to get to a 50% win percentage as you keep going and upgrading. I mean my 4-player party threw up its hands and quit a game in Scene 1 because I was going to have a staggered character, and they were at 10 Nuyen so it's a horrible idea to successfully abort (your payout for a success drops a point). Scene 1, for crying out loud.
Scott, Yes, some games can be brutal depending on how the cards go. A couple nights ago I played with 3 other friends. They were all over the 5 karma level and so took some of the early +1 upgrades in whatever they felt would help the best. I was trying a new character, human face, with no karma.

We played two games with the Crossfire mission. In game one, our first event caused everyone to take two damage for a BM card draw. One of our first obs had a flipped effect where a chosen runner would take another point of damage, so before the start player even could play we had taken 9 points of damage, and we were playing with an orc, 2 humans and an elf. Needless to say, we didn't make it very far, but were able to abort I think with only 1 obs left in scene 1. Not a good start to an evening.

Our second game went a little better, but the BM was mostly throwing Hacking cards our way, with some Doc Wagons showing up in scene 3, but I think we entered scene three with everyone around 2 hp. We didn't last long and weren't able to abort due to the amount of obs that would get passed on to the next runner. The thing that really killed us this game was that many times instead of being able to kill an obs we were just damaging it to a point were we would hit a level with colored damage that the runner was missing, and the BM just hadn't given us many assist cards to buy. Also early in scene 2 we drew the event that adds two cards to the crossfire level, and so this was triggering the harder version of many of the later cards.

So I understand how games can go sideways....and very quickly.

But I also understand how late game you can have some amazingly powerful hands. Yesterday, I played a couple more games and in the second the dwarf decker was able to take down a Godswire obs "by himself" (this card's first level is 8 colorless damage and then I don't remember the other levels). He was able to do this because earlier in this mission there had been two obs that rewarded 11 nuyen, and so he had been able to get some nice cards. With Godswire it heals 2 levels of damage each time it attacks or heals all levels, I don't remember, but either way there was no damage on it because we didn't want it just to heal back. The previous turn the dwarf played cards down to 3 cards, so that he would be able to draw two. I don't remember the exact details but I do remember that he was able to start his turn with two Backdoors, and a Pair Programing, and some basic cards. He discarded a basic card to retrieve a Jacked In and then was able to play Pair Programming to play the Mage's Black Market Contacts which allowed him to buy and play a card from the market, and the Street Sam was able to assist with a Covering Fire (which was the original plan so the Godswire wouldn't heal), but when I was adding all the damage up not only was he able to take out the first level of 8 dam, and a couple more levels, but was able to kill it out right. It was pretty epic, and that is what I really like about the game. For this game the Decker had the 10 nuyen upgrade Prep Work, the human mage had +1 starting nuyen, and the other two character didn't have any upgrades.

Here is my win-abort-loss record for the Crossfire mission:
4p 2-1-1
3p 1-0-0
2p 2-0-0

My first try at the Crossfire mission was 2p and was played without any upgrades. My first mission ever was Ambulators 2p also without any upgrades. After that most other missions have included 1-2 players who had upgrades, and some that didn't...usually at least one.

I find the 2p Crossfire to be much easier than that 3 and 4 player, due to getting 2 turns the first two turns without events, which is what I find really can mess with a game/plan.

Personally, I don't worry too much about the gaining and losing of karma, in the game you guys just quit due to aborting would have caused people to lose 1 karma, I think I would have played out, just to see if we could abort successfully......but sometimes if there are too many obs, then I could see calling a game. But now that I think about it, any game that I start with over 10 worth of upgrading and if I quit out, I would still deduct the karma........I wonder from the rules do characters ever lose karma? I hadn't faced this situation yet because until just recently my characters were only using the 5 karma upgrades.

Sorry, that got a little long winded, but since you asked.

Happy gaming.

 
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James Arias
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Lonster wrote:
[q="kysmart"]

We played two games with the Crossfire mission. In game one, our first event caused everyone to take two damage for a BM card draw. One of our first obs had a flipped effect where a chosen runner would take another point of damage, so before the start player even could play we had taken 9 points of damage, and we were playing with an orc, 2 humans and an elf. Needless to say, we didn't make it very far, but were able to abort I think with only 1 obs left in scene 1. Not a good start to an evening.

This is almost EXACTLY how my very first game just went last night. Crossfire events with "wandering damage" combined with Black Market full of expensive cards we couldn't afford and no opportunity to cycle. Still completed 2nd Scene of Crossfire Mission before had to (successfully) Abort.
 
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Billy Chan
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crazybyzantine wrote:

Black Market full of expensive cards we couldn't afford and no opportunity to cycle.

if you're playing the prime runner rules, if the current runner doesn't buy from the BM, they discard one of the BM cards and draw a new one.
 
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Rob Davis
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bhchan wrote:
crazybyzantine wrote:

Black Market full of expensive cards we couldn't afford and no opportunity to cycle.

if you're playing the prime runner rules, if the current runner doesn't buy from the BM, they discard one of the BM cards and draw a new one.
That's a Dragonfire rule - it's not in Prime Runners. (Unless it's added as a special mission rule. It's not in the rulebook tho.)
 
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