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Subject: Rules question for Extra Action tiles... rss

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Andrew Kranak
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I love this game. I play it just about any time my friends are willing to play, which is just not often enough. However, there was something I ran across on this site that left me wondering if we were doing one small part correctly.

If you are taking a Forum action, and you grab a Forum Extra Action tile, are you permitted to turn it in immediately to use it? We have not been playing that way, and I think I would prefer to stay that way, but there was some post here that made me think this was incorrect. We do our best to follow the rules properly, and would like to avoid accidental hose rules, so I was wondering if anyone knew the official rules for that type of scenario.
 
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YEs, you are. I'm not sure why you wouldn't be able to. What makes you think it wouldn't be leagal.

It really is nice if you have the action double on the forum action.
 
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Sam Carroll
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It was discussed at length on the forum here. The conclusion was that you can immediately spend it. The trouble with the rule as it stands is that the first player each quarter to take a forum action will automatically grab and use the extra-action forum tile, if only to deny it to somebody else who has a X2 marker on forum. It's a no-brainer. There's no opportunity cost, since you can immediately spend the tile you grabbed to get whatever you actually want. In a game filled with so many difficult choices, this no-brainer strikes a jarring note to me.

EDIT: here's the previous thread. extra action wild cards(forum) and shipping question
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Andrew Kranak
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Well, it is more like it was so alien to how any of us perceived it that it was never asked when playing. We were turning in Extra Action tiles when we decided to take an action, making it clear that we were using them.

I will say that I don't exactly like this ruling, but I will pass that information on to my friends when we play next so that we can start using it. thanks for the quick responses.
 
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C L
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I disagree with using the tiles immediately, and cite the simple, one sentence rule under "Forum Action" as justification for my opinion..."The player takes any one tile of their choice from the forum and places it face up on its designated space on their player mat." That's all I need to come to the conclusion that the tile must go to the mat and cannot be used as part of that turn. If the sentence continued by stating..."or in the case of an extra action tile, you may use it immediately", then I would agree with the conclusion reached on the other thread.

My interpretation of the description for the extra action tiles is that you have to actually discard it from your player mat to use the extra action, meaning you obtained it on a previous turn, rather than just going through the motions of taking it from the forum, putting it on the mat as a formality, and then immediately discarding it.
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Bryan Thunkd
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clinz30 wrote:
I disagree with using the tiles immediately, and cite the simple, one sentence rule under "Forum Action" as justification for my opinion..."The player takes any one tile of their choice from the forum and places it face up on its designated space on their player mat." That's all I need to come to the conclusion that the tile must go to the mat and cannot be used as part of that turn. If the sentence continued by stating..."or in the case of an extra action tile, you may use it immediately", then I would agree with the conclusion reached on the other thread.
Yeah, you're wrong.
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C L
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I'm sure I am, but until someone can point to an official ruling, I'll just keep playing it the way the manual reads.
 
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Murr Rockstroh
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clinz30 wrote:
My interpretation of the description for the extra action tiles is that you have to actually discard it from your player mat to use the extra action, meaning you obtained it on a previous turn, rather than just going through the motions of taking it from the forum, putting it on the mat as a formality, and then immediately discarding it.

You do, it says after completing your action, you may use an extra action tile to perform it again. So you go to the forum, take the forum extra action tile, put it on your board, thus completing your action. You then discard it from your player board and perform it again.
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Enon Sci
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clinz30 wrote:
I'm sure I am, but until someone can point to an official ruling, I'll just keep playing it the way the manual reads.


You're fine to play the game with any house rules you wish, but this is indeed wrong. As others have said, the tile goes to the board because that is how you complete the action, but nothing prohibits extra action tiles from being spent upon the completion of said action.

It actually makes sense to use it if you have a +2 -- it becomes more than a mere denial of opportunity move.

 
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C L
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I agree that nothing prohibits tiles from being used that way, but there's nothing that says you can use them that way. It doesn't make sense that there are only two tiles, forum and military, that are able to be used on the same turn you get them. There are also other examples in the rule book that lead me to believe they're not intended to be used that way.

In the military section it reads..."If they encounter a tile in that province, they simply seize it and place it on their player mat." That's it, no specific mention of taking a military extra action and immediately using it again.

Also, because the manual points out other specific instances in which extra actions are taken, it seems reasonable to assume it would point it out in the case of the forum and military tile. For example, in the construction section it reads..."they immediately perform the assigned action, in addition to their ordinary action." And in the extra action tiles section there is a special note which reads..."also an additional action caused by a construction action allows the player to use an extra action tile."

I do understand the argument for using the forum and military extra action immediately, but to me there is enough in the rule book to support playing it the other way...and it just makes more sense within the mechanics and structure of the rest of the game.
 
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Bill Grant
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clinz30 wrote:
Also, because the manual points out other specific instances in which extra actions are taken, it seems reasonable to assume it would point it out in the case of the forum and military tile. For example, in the construction section it reads..."they immediately perform the assigned action, in addition to their ordinary action." And in the extra action tiles section there is a special note which reads..."also an additional action caused by a construction action allows the player to use an extra action tile."

I can't speak to the rest (though it sounds like this has been discussed before and the general consensus leans heavily towards the understanding that extra action tiles received during a turn can be used in the current turn) but the reason that construction is called out specifically is because it can be involved in a longer chain.

For example if you perform a construction action and then use a construction extra action (1 or 2) and in that process pick up the first construction of a type then you can (must, can't save it for a later turn) perform this additional action. It is necessary to explain this special situation since generally only one extra action is permitted. I think the rules author chose to use the words extra and additional to be clear they are different concepts, though I could be wrong.
 
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Murr Rockstroh
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clinz30 wrote:
I agree that nothing prohibits tiles from being used that way, but there's nothing that says you can use them that way.

Yes there is something that says you can use them that way. The rulebook says after completing your action, you may use an extra action tile to perform it again.

clinz30 wrote:
In the military section it reads..."If they encounter a tile in that province, they simply seize it and place it on their player mat." That's it, no specific mention of taking a military extra action and immediately using it again.

Yes there is something that says you can take an extra action tile and immediately use it. The rulebook says after completing your action, you may use an extra action tile to perform it again.

After completing your action. I don't know how much more clear the rulebook could make it.
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C L
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Thank you, I've read that in the rules. I just interpret it differently when I take into account the other rules that say to put the tiles on your mat. I look at the rule you're citing as merely the general description of what the tiles do and when to use them. There's nothing in there that specifically adresses using those certain tiles immediately after selecting them. As others have pointed out, it makes the forum extra action tiles useless in certain circumstances.

If I'm houseruling it, so be it, but I like it better.
 
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Bryan Thunkd
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Rules wrote:
Forum action
The player takes any one tile of their choice from the forum and places it face up on its designated space of their player mat.
That seems to pretty clearly define what the forum action is, correct? So you do all that and you're done with the forum action.

Rules wrote:
The extra action tiles
After performing their action, a player may repeat this action by discarding an extra tile showing the same action icon. If they have a [+2] marker assigned to this action, they may repeat it even a second time.
That's unambiguous to me. You do the action. After the action you can use extra action tiles. If getting a tile is part of your action, then you'll have it after your action is completed, regardless of where you put it as part of the action.

You are trying to make the rules say what you'd prefer them to say. If you read them without an objective in mind, they are pretty straightforward.
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Bryan Thunkd
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From here, Bernd Dietrich (product manager for Trajan I believe? or at least his name is in the rulebook as "Realization"):

Bernd wrote:
thisaliensean wrote:
1)Can we use extra action wild cards right away?

For e.g.

when the target tray is forum and I pick up an extra action wild card, can I use it right away to perform an extra action in forum?


Page 11 of the rulesbook: "After performing their action, a player may repeat this action by discarding an extra tile showing the same action icon..." So, if you have an appropiate extra action tile available (at this moment!) you may decide to perform an extra action. There is definitely no rule saying you must have had this tile for 1, 2 or more rounds.


I generally consider rulings about rules questions from a guy whose name shows up in the rulebook to carry some weight.
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Thanks Thunkd, but unless Feld himself comes in here and says the extra action tile...just kidding...I appreciate the perspective and clarification from everyone on here. I definitely see your points and realize my interpretation is wrong.
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Gary Heidenreich
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spartax wrote:
...The trouble with the rule as it stands is that the first player each quarter to take a forum action will automatically grab and use the extra-action forum tile, if only to deny it to somebody else who has a X2 marker on forum. It's a no-brainer. There's no opportunity cost, since you can immediately spend the tile you grabbed to get whatever you actually want. In a game filled with so many difficult choices, this no-brainer strikes a jarring note to me.

EDIT: here's the previous thread. extra action wild cards(forum) and shipping question


Just played again last night and I do not get how this is a no-brainer. This was done by people in the game, but not me (I won handedly). It's a no brainer if you are going in a certain direction but with limited actions, it behooves you to do things to further your interests versus taking a double up on something you perhaps do not need.

I did think it was pretty slick of him when he did that. I was like "Damn, I wish I thought of that". But, I was already on my way down a different road.

 
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Bryan Thunkd
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bop517 wrote:
Just played again last night and I do not get how this is a no-brainer. This was done by people in the game, but not me (I won handedly). It's a no brainer if you are going in a certain direction but with limited actions, it behooves you to do things to further your interests versus taking a double up on something you perhaps do not need.
So let's say you go to the forum and need to take a religion (fire) tile. But there's also a forum bonus action tile. You could leave the forum bonus action tile for someone else and just take the religion tile. Or you could take the forum bonus action tile, immediately redeem it to get another forum action with which you take the religion tile. Why wouldn't you?
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Rich Charters
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Thunkd wrote:
bop517 wrote:
Just played again last night and I do not get how this is a no-brainer. This was done by people in the game, but not me (I won handedly). It's a no brainer if you are going in a certain direction but with limited actions, it behooves you to do things to further your interests versus taking a double up on something you perhaps do not need.
So let's say you go to the forum and need to take a religion (fire) tile. But there's also a forum bonus action tile. You could leave the forum bonus action tile for someone else and just take the religion tile. Or you could take the forum bonus action tile, immediately redeem it to get another forum action with which you take the religion tile. Why wouldn't you?
The only reason you wouldn't do this that I can see is if you were hoping to get both of them....the extra action tile for another use and the religion tile as well. So I could see taking the religion tile first to make sure you get it, and then hope the extra action would still be there after your opponent(s) move.
 
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I think taking the Forum action tile in the forum, and using it is a pretty basic move. For that reason only I can see a house rule of, you can't use an action tile the turn you get it.

But, how would that affect getting a military action tile in the military section?
 
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Jon Ben
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pilotbob wrote:
I think taking the Forum action tile in the forum, and using it is a pretty basic move. For that reason only I can see a house rule of, you can't use an action tile the turn you get it.

But, how would that affect getting a military action tile in the military section?


We play with the house rule that you cannot use the forum action tile the turn you get it unless you have a +2 modifier. The minimum needed to ensure the forum action tiles actually get used 'properly'. Otherwise there is very little incentive to put a +2 on the forum action as other players will certainly 'explode' that tile if they get the chance.
 
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JonBen wrote:
pilotbob wrote:
I think taking the Forum action tile in the forum, and using it is a pretty basic move. For that reason only I can see a house rule of, you can't use an action tile the turn you get it.

But, how would that affect getting a military action tile in the military section?


We play with the house rule that you cannot use the forum action tile the turn you get it unless you have a +2 modifier. The minimum needed to ensure the forum action tiles actually get used 'properly'. Otherwise there is very little incentive to put a +2 on the forum action as other players will certainly 'explode' that tile if they get the chance.


I have several times taken build, build the do-hickey that gives you a forum action, and taken the forum action tile from the forum and not used it again (which by rule you could).

This is probably the only week aspect of an otherwise great and very balanced game.

How many people try to get a doubler as like their first trajan tile? (yea, off topic I guess).
 
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Bryan Thunkd
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JonBen wrote:
pilotbob wrote:
I think taking the Forum action tile in the forum, and using it is a pretty basic move. For that reason only I can see a house rule of, you can't use an action tile the turn you get it.

But, how would that affect getting a military action tile in the military section?


We play with the house rule that you cannot use the forum action tile the turn you get it unless you have a +2 modifier. The minimum needed to ensure the forum action tiles actually get used 'properly'. Otherwise there is very little incentive to put a +2 on the forum action as other players will certainly 'explode' that tile if they get the chance.
I don't find that to be true at all. I play without your house rule and I see plenty of incentive to putting the +2 on the forum. But then I also try to play with timing to insure that I'm more likely to be the start player in the following round. This is especially true when playing two player, and less so at four player.
 
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Tim O'Leary
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Thunkd wrote:
From here, Bernd Dietrich (product manager for Trajan I believe? or at least his name is in the rulebook as "Realization"):

Bernd wrote:
thisaliensean wrote:
1)Can we use extra action wild cards right away?

For e.g.

when the target tray is forum and I pick up an extra action wild card, can I use it right away to perform an extra action in forum?


Page 11 of the rulesbook: "After performing their action, a player may repeat this action by discarding an extra tile showing the same action icon..." So, if you have an appropiate extra action tile available (at this moment!) you may decide to perform an extra action. There is definitely no rule saying you must have had this tile for 1, 2 or more rounds.


I generally consider rulings about rules questions from a guy whose name shows up in the rulebook to carry some weight.



The way I read this is that you can repeat the action you have just performed regardless of when you picked up that tile. The rule book says that you can repeat "this action". However if you picked up a tile for a different action from the one you performed to get the tile then you can not use it.

Is that correct?
 
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Timbol wrote:
The way I read this is that you can repeat the action you have just performed regardless of when you picked up that tile. The rule book says that you can repeat "this action". However if you picked up a tile for a different action from the one you performed to get the tile then you can not use it.

Is that correct?

That is how I interpret it. You can only repeat the SAME action (if you have the tile to do it).
 
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