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Subject: I'm on the fence on this one rss

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JB
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This has been an instant buy for me since I first heard about it, coming from a star wars mad household.
The more I wait, the more I can't help but think that re-hashing an old game system, no matter how good it was, is still, well, re-hashing an old game system.
It's not innovative, it's not cutting edge, it's old before it even comes out, and it must compete with fresh new designs in 2015.
I'm still excited about it, and I hope I still am by the new year, but I can't help but think, if only they had built an innovative new game system instead of throwing a new theme on an old game.
Having not played Descent I can only hope the game system is that good it can last another 2-3 years.
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Vayda
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To be fair descent has gone through a lot of changes.

2nd edition is a fresh face to the old game.

And from what I saw of this at gencon-- it's not 2nd edition, but really 3rd edition. Many new rules really support the play style and the theme. Many things that were weird or obtuse in 2nd descent seem to be missing from imp assault.
I hope when we see the final rules, it really shines.

Edit-- typos
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Yeah, the rules are new and revised. It is inspired by Descent 2E, but it has changed many of the clunkier parts of those rules. It is not just Descent 2E with a Star Wars paint job, it is a Star Wars game rebuilt and improved from a Descent 2E foundation.

I'm happy they are using the existing foundation to make a new game design. The foundation works and it works well. Those parts that didn't work as well, or didn't suit the Star Wars theming are being modified so they work better. Thus, we have a game that has been thoroughly tested already (in its earlier incarnation) and that we know will work really well. If this were a totally new design, we would have no idea about the quality or robustness of the rules at all.

Another thing to consider is that the Skirmish rules are totally new, not based on any previous system, so you have your novelty there if that is the only thing concerning you.

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JB
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Clipper wrote:

Another thing to consider is that the Skirmish rules are totally new, not based on any previous system, so you have your novelty there if that is the only thing concerning you.


It's not novelty I am after, it's innovation.
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Joe Crane
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Well wait it out, i'm guessing it will sell like crazy and it won't be going anywhere anytime soon so if you want to jump on the wagon later you can. I for one am getting this day one.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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JBTheChamp wrote:
Clipper wrote:

Another thing to consider is that the Skirmish rules are totally new, not based on any previous system, so you have your novelty there if that is the only thing concerning you.


It's not novelty I am after, it's innovation.

Ah, in that case it should be mentioned that something doesn't have to be completely new to be innovative. Also, I'm fairly sure there can't be many games out there that include components that can both be used for 1 vs. many story-based scenarios in addition to many vs. many skirmishes. I'm looking forward to discovering how they've done that as I can't really envision it (hence the innovation).

There's also several inventive steps in the rule evolutions, such as the alternating turns of Overlord and heroes. That in itself will change the feel of the game dramatically and is fairly new and interesting for this type of game.
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JB
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VaeVictis666 wrote:
Well wait it out, i'm guessing it will sell like crazy and it won't be going anywhere anytime soon so if you want to jump on the wagon later you can. I for one am getting this day one.


I might wait it out, like maybe a week or two
 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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The innovative part will be the Skrimish mode. Not entirely innovative in general, but new to the Doom/Descent mechanics.

-shnar
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JB
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shnar wrote:
The innovative part will be the Skrimish mode. Not entirely innovative in general, but new to the Doom/Descent mechanics.

-shnar


Good point, I hadn't really thought about skirmish mode. I tried the Star Wars miniatures game and didn't think of it.
 
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Yog Sothoth
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JBTheChamp wrote:
This has been an instant buy for me since I first heard about it, coming from a star wars mad household.
The more I wait, the more I can't help but think that re-hashing an old game system, no matter how good it was, is still, well, re-hashing an old game system.
It's not innovative, it's not cutting edge, it's old before it even comes out, and it must compete with fresh new designs in 2015.
I'm still excited about it, and I hope I still am by the new year, but I can't help but think, if only they had built an innovative new game system instead of throwing a new theme on an old game.
Having not played Descent I can only hope the game system is that good it can last another 2-3 years.


I find your lack of faith disturbing.
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Paul DeStefano
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JBTheChamp wrote:
re-hashing an old game system,.....
Having not played Descent


This game is new to you.

Have you seriously never bought a game that was released prior to the current year?
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Alex Eding
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Clipper wrote:
it is a Star Wars game rebuilt and improved from a Descent 2E foundation.


So what you're saying is it's a "Fully Armed and Operational Board Game"?

I've convinced my wife that this is the best Christmas gift for me, so we're pre-ordered (especially now that the street date switched to Q4 this year.)

I thought I was going to wait on this one too, but honestly it looks too fun to wait for. I've never played Descent so the combat/crawl system will be new to me. I understand an interest in innovation, but sometimes we get the best stuff from tweaking old ideas. Also Ecclesiastes 1:9 says "What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun."

I take that verse to heart especially in entertainment. Everything is a re-hashing of an old idea. Movies are re-hashed stories from ancient times, games are re-hashed games from days of old, and people just keep spinning their wheels about the same old stuff.

Don't think I'm a pessimist. New twists are still fun, but its all based on the same principle. Old stuff gets repurposed and improved upon. I think it's kinda cool.

Edit: Content after joke
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Chris Brown
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As someone who doesn't own Descent but likes it and is a huge Star Wars fan, this is an obvious buy. I'm not sure the competitive scene for it will survive, but the campaign is what I'm super excited for.
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Robin Reeve
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Clipper wrote:
Yeah, the rules are new and revised. It is inspired by Descent 2E, but it has changed many of the clunkier parts of those rules. It is not just Descent 2E with a Star Wars paint job, it is a Star Wars game rebuilt and improved from a Descent 2E foundation.
Could you elaborate what the "clunkier parts" of D2E are left out?
Is it about the LOS, large monster movement rules, the different nuances of movement (some actions do move a figure but they are not moves stuff) ?
 
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Matthew Saloff
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JBTheChamp wrote:
re-hashing an old game system,.....
Having not played Descent


Why would you care if it's a re-hash if you have never played Descent? Not like it would be a repeated experience for you. A curious critique.

Regardless, while watching this played at GenCon there was enough differences that it didn't feel a TON like Descent to me. It more made me remember the days of playing the old West End Games Star Wars RPG with my friends and using graph paper for maps.

This is gonna be an auto-buy for my group. Can't wait.
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Peter Marchlewitz
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I love Star Wars stuff ( well the original trilogy anyways ) and I love minis games... especially multi player.
This is a must buy for me... even though I own Descent.

 
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Keith Hammons
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If you're looking for innovation, Doom 4th edition won't do it for you.

In my opinion each edition changes and builds upon the last creating a better and better game. In the many IA previews it seems they have done the same here. I can't wait.

One of my favorite games in a long time, Eldritch Horror was an iteration rather than complete innovation, and has gotten far more playtime from our group than AH ever would.
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Frank Franco
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What 'innovative' games have come out in the last few years that weren't turds?
Every game is built on the foundations of those that come before.
We aren't talking X-box games here, good boardgame designs last a lifetime.
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JB
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Mattr0polis wrote:


Why would you care if it's a re-hash if you have never played Descent? Not like it would be a repeated experience for you. A curious critique.



Fair question, and yes it will be new for me, having not played Descent, but that doesn't necessarily make it a good idea. Unless you love Descent, of course.
Have we really exhausted all ideas for board game design ? The human brain is bigger than that.
All I am saying is that 12 months on this game could start to look decidedly dinasour-ish
 
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Andy Strauss
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JBTheChamp wrote:

It's not novelty I am after, it's innovation.


In today's boardgame market? Search for the new Reiner Knizia title.
Games in the Star Wars franchise, they usually don't create from scratch.

Star Wars: X-Wing Miniatures Game is a updated Wings of War: Famous Aces. And the later is a new version of of Blue Max.

Come ON! Give they guys a break about using Descent(whatever version) as base for this game.

Cheers,
 
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Chris J Davis
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andstrauss wrote:
JBTheChamp wrote:

It's not novelty I am after, it's innovation.


In today's boardgame market? Search for the new Reiner Knizia title.
Games in the Star Wars franchise, they usually don't create from scratch.

Star Wars: X-Wing Miniatures Game is a updated Wings of War: Famous Aces. And the later is a new version of of Blue Max.

Cheers,


And apparently Star Wars: Empire vs. Rebellion is just a re-skin of Cold War: CIA vs KGB.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Robin wrote:
Clipper wrote:
Yeah, the rules are new and revised. It is inspired by Descent 2E, but it has changed many of the clunkier parts of those rules. It is not just Descent 2E with a Star Wars paint job, it is a Star Wars game rebuilt and improved from a Descent 2E foundation.
Could you elaborate what the "clunkier parts" of D2E are left out?
Is it about the LOS, large monster movement rules, the different nuances of movement (some actions do move a figure but they are not moves stuff) ?

Some of the things I'm aware of and that I feel improve over D2E rules:
LoS rules leading to far fewer absurd interactions.
Interspersed turns meaning neither side gets bored or feels overwhelmed while all the other team's figures activate.
Hidden campaign information leads to scenarios with actual storytelling elements, rather than everyone at the table knowing what's coming.
Change of Movement rules so that a Move Action simply adds movement points to your pool which you can use whenever you feel like. This makes much more sense than the 'interrupt your move' mechanic of D2E.
The Wounded/Retreat mechanic makes much more thematic sense than a Hero which keeps standing up and immediately being beaten down again by the same monster turn after turn.
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bleached_lizard wrote:
andstrauss wrote:
JBTheChamp wrote:

It's not novelty I am after, it's innovation.


In today's boardgame market? Search for the new Reiner Knizia title.
Games in the Star Wars franchise, they usually don't create from scratch.

Star Wars: X-Wing Miniatures Game is a updated Wings of War: Famous Aces. And the later is a new version of of Blue Max.

Cheers,


And apparently Star Wars: Empire vs. Rebellion is just a re-skin of Cold War: CIA vs KGB.


Which was a twist on Black Jack.
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I am looking forward to trying this game. Descent is a game that would normally be right up my alley but I would have to be the Overlord in every single game I ever play of it and that is very unappealing to me. Reason for this is I would be the only person in my play group with the game. Heroquest and Space Crusade played like that. This having a proper player versus player option opens this game up to me.
 
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Robin Reeve
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Clipper wrote:

Some of the things I'm aware of and that I feel improve over D2E rules:
LoS rules leading to far fewer absurd interactions.
Interspersed turns meaning neither side gets bored or feels overwhelmed while all the other team's figures activate.
Hidden campaign information leads to scenarios with actual storytelling elements, rather than everyone at the table knowing what's coming.
Change of Movement rules so that a Move Action simply adds movement points to your pool which you can use whenever you feel like. This makes much more sense than the 'interrupt your move' mechanic of D2E.
The Wounded/Retreat mechanic makes much more thematic sense than a Hero which keeps standing up and immediately being beaten down again by the same monster turn after turn.
This is good news.
I would also have wished that FFG integrated a coop/solo system in the game, as finding regular opponents (especially for a campaign) is not possible for me.
It has led me to shelve Descent and to go for coop games (Mice & Mystics, Gears of war and the coming Super Dungeon Explore), even though I really like D2E.
Perhaps the lack of coop rules for this game will keep me from purchasing it (unless the one vs. one skirmish mode is nice to play or the one vs. Rebellion works well for one shot encounters).
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