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Legendary: Guardians of the Galaxy» Forums » General

Subject: Quick word of caution: Bookkeeping rss

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Played our first couple of rounds of the Guardians of the Galaxy expansion today. All I can say is be prepared to do a ton of bookkeeping and elementary math! The new shards are integral to the majority of this expansion. They typically either can be spent to give you more attack or placed on a villain to increase their toughness. You also have artifacts that can be activated each turn much like those in Ascension. Here's a quick example of what to expect.

Thanos mastermind takes 24 fight to defeat. But you have 4 artifacts, which each reduce Thanos's toughness by 2 apiece for a total of -8 according to his special text. Thanos has 5 shards next to him, however, increasing his toughness by +5. Fortunately, you've managed to generate 6 recruit and according to the scheme, you may pay 2 recruit to remove 1 shard from Thanos. So you spend all 6 recruit and gain 3 shards from Thanos, reducing the amount of shards he has to 2. You have an artifact that says gain 1 shard. You now have 7 shards and turn them into +7 fight. In addition to that, you have another artifact that says gain +1 fight each turn. You have already generated 6 fight this turn through other cards you've played. You now play a card that doubles your total fight. Do you have enough fight to defeat Thanos?

I mean, it's simple math, but good grief there's a ton of shards going this way and that. And it's not like there's one or two turns like this. It's almost every single turn toward the latter 1/4th or 1/3rd of the game. It also seemed as though this expansion has a longer average playtime than most games of Legendary. I feel like this game should be used to teach elementary math in a fun way to kids. For adults, though, it's repetitive and tedious.

On a nice note, the new characters are a blast to play with and the artwork is phenomenal. If I wasn't playing certain schemes and masterminds that over-emphasis shards, I could see myself having a blast.

Some may not mind too much, but I wanted to inform those who it may concern.

Edit: we also played with the other mastermind, supreme intelligence of the kree, today with the intergalactic kree nega bomb scheme. We removed the infinity gem villain group from the villain deck, and our experience was significantly better. Shards weren't a nuisance with this setup as there was substantially less bookkeeping. So while one mastermind and scheme were pretty poor in my opinion, others in the expansion seem to be interesting and fun so far.
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Nathan M
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Looks like you generated 28 attack. I maybe would have held some of my shards in reserve unless there was something in the city I wanted to attack.

Also, you brought Thanos down to 18, so you had 10 extra attack.
 
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You are right. But that was just an example I rambled off the top of my head based off a similar experience in the actual game. You're right, I probably wouldn't spend so many shards unless I also wanted to defeat villains in the town.
 
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MoonSylver
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Sounds like Sentinels of the Multiverse. laugh (j/k I love Sentinels too! )
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Frank Big Poppi
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If Thanos leaves the Mastermind space traveling down the City track at 1 space per turn and a Shard leaves the Shard pool 3 turns after him, how much recruit would you need to gain Gamora's rare card?

I don't think the math in this set is any harder than what was needed in the Fan4 set with all the Focus abilities.
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FrankieP wrote:
If Thanos leaves the Mastermind space traveling down the City track at 1 space per turn and a Shard leaves the Shard pool 3 turns after him, how much recruit would you need to gain Gamora's rare card?

I don't think the math in this set is any harder than what was needed in the Fan4 set with all the Focus abilities.


Gamora's rare card would still cost 8 recruit.
 
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Frank Big Poppi
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imtylerdurden wrote:
FrankieP wrote:
If Thanos leaves the Mastermind space traveling down the City track at 1 space per turn and a Shard leaves the Shard pool 3 turns after him, how much recruit would you need to gain Gamora's rare card?

I don't think the math in this set is any harder than what was needed in the Fan4 set with all the Focus abilities.


Gamora's rare card would still cost 8 recruit.


See, not that hard.
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Steve Crow
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Actually, what we found required the most bookkeeping was flipping and checking and "making change for" the Shard markers.

We couldn't see how you could do all that and meet the 30 Shard requirement for the one scheme. We figured if we played that, we'd just use poker chips or something.

We spent more time trying to work out change than anything. It doesn't help that the flipside numbers don't match the colors.

Other than that, we also liked the set. If anything, shards seemed to make things too easy. We played a Supreme Intelligence game, Forge the Gauntlet with... Hulk, Moon Knight, Starlord, Rocket, Groot. Kree Starforce, Masters of Evil, Infinity Gems, Savage Land Mutates, Hand Ninja. Four players.

We bulldozed poor Supremo. Element Gun is a huge game changer, just for starters. I don't think he picked up more than two shards at a time, and folks would just sit there and let the shards build up, and then slam the mastermind.

We'd hate to see what would happen to the poor Red Skull in a shard-containing game...
 
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Moosey
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imtylerdurden wrote:
I feel like this game should be used to teach elementary math in a fun way to kids. For adults, though, it's repetitive and tedious.


Don't worry, in the next expansion we can play as cosmic beings. Eternity, Infinity, Lord Chaos, Celestials, Epoch and more... all vs the Living Tribunal mastermind (like Ronan, but more involved... but that's off topic). Point being, it gets rid of the simple math, and you calculate outcomes using basic derivatives/integrals.
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chris leko
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MooseyFate wrote:
imtylerdurden wrote:
I feel like this game should be used to teach elementary math in a fun way to kids. For adults, though, it's repetitive and tedious.


Don't worry, in the next expansion we can play as cosmic beings. Eternity, Infinity, Lord Chaos, Celestials, Epoch and more... all vs the Living Tribunal mastermind (like Ronan, but more involved... but that's off topic). Point being, it gets rid of the simple math, and you calculate outcomes using basic derivatives/integrals.


The Living Tribunal approves of this.
 
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William
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Ya.

I got home from a long day at work and sat down to relax and play with guardians for the first time.

Random draw:
Thanos (w/gems & ninjas), Unite the shards, Drax, Thor, Storm.
-played to a draw.

Keeping track of the shards was a little more labor intensive than I expected.

Maybe I'll set Guardians aside and only play with this set when I'm fresh in the mind and not mentally exhausted.

Otherwise, glad to have fresh content and mechanics.
 
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Dan Briand
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This whole shards and artifacts thing has me pretty worried.

I bought GotG, but haven't played it yet. I'm having some friends over on thursday to try it out, but I'm really nervous about tackling this expansion as it seems to add a lot of extra things to keep track of.

Plus, all the other expansions I could open up the box, read the rules sheet and immediately understand all of the new mechanics.

For GotG, I've read the rule sheet and looked at the cards a dozen times and I can't wrap my head around how any of it get played.

Plus I'm worried about all the bookkeeping that needs to be done. Does this affect the pace of the game? Doesn't having to pause and concentrate and so many different things on one turn just suck the whole fun and social aspect out of the game?

I'm worried that this new expansion will break the game for me and I'll be forced to launch the guardians back into space with their shards.
 
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Ranger Rob
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Having played half a dozen games with GotG...you have nothing to be afraid of.

Artifacts sort of add one step...but only if you have them.
Shards are no different than having a supply of Shield Troopers with Teleport.

Speeds up the game actually...Thanos against the Guardians with shards, cake...against random pool of heroes...Beast.

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Dan Briand
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I guess I won't know until I try it, but just by reading the rule sheet, I don't understand what Artifacts are.

I also don't understand when it says "[something] that you control".

Anywho, I'm sure it's probably not as daunting as I'm making out to be in my own head, I'm just very confused by the Shards, Artifacts and Infinity Gems villain group without having played those before. It just seems less straight forward than everything that's come before it in Legendary.

I'll do some more reading in these forums.


 
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I will agree and disagree with Ranger Rob, and hopefully answer your questions here by replying to him.

I agree in the sense that I don't believe you need to be afraid. The bookkeeping doesn't ruin the experience of the game. It's not rocket science, but it is a mild annoyance.

I disagree, though, because I do feel it increases the average playtime. If a normal game of Legendary with 2 players lasts 30 minutes, this expansion probably takes us 40 minutes or more on average, especially with some specific mastermind/scheme combinations.

Is that a big deal? No, not really. But it was enough of a study in elementary math that I'm not eager to play a couple of those mastermind/scheme combinations ever again.

The nice thing is, the characters are truly a joy to play with. My wife and I LOVE using the Guardians characters with virtually every other scheme and mastermind other than the ones included in the Guardians expansion!

The characters add artifacts, which act just like constructs in Ascension, meaning they stay out in front of you and can be used once per turn. In addition to that, some characters give you shards, which can be saved and spent on future turns to add +1 fight per shard spent. These are such simple concepts that in the right amount are phenomenal additions to the game.

It's when the mastermind/scheme/characters from this expansion all start impacting one another like I've explained in my original post that you have a problem.

Hope that helps!
 
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Dan Briand
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You lost me at "like constructs in Ascension".

Marvel Legendary and Resident Evil are the only DBG games I've ever played.
 
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Dan Briand
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Well, I finally played this new expansion yesterday and my initial impressions side with a lot of the opinions in this thread.

Considering I've only played Legendary about 2 dozen times or so, I did feel that the "bookkeeping" was a little on the heavy side.

Our first Scheme was "Forge the Infinity Gauntlet" with Thanos Mastermind.

My God! There was just so much to keep track of. It made the game extremely slow paced.

It was a little frustrating when each player has to take a large amount of time concentrating on every element of their turn only to realize later on that they forgot to do certain things. Even something as basic as flipping over the villain card to begin the turn.

It's as if each player was so focused on how their turn was going to play out that they weren't paying attention to what was happening during other players turns resulting in a lot of "What did I miss?" or "Hey, when did this happen?". Then when it was actually time for that player's turn, they were so eager to go through all the steps of their pre-planned play and order that they would jump right in completely forget to even turn over the villain card. Everyone else is either too concentrated on what they were gonna do next that it just slipped everyone's mind.

Plus.. each turn was loooooong.

It's not that nobody enjoyed it though. We all did, but it definitely brings the game from "breezie" to "heavy".

We then played Kree/Skrull War with Supreme Intelligence Mastermind and this game was quicker without the Infinity Gems Villain group with less shards flying around (in both games we used all 5 GotG heroes too).

Then a third scheme was played, but this time we completely cut out the GotG expansion and we just banged out every turn in no time at all. The pace was much quicker and steps weren't being forgotten, even considering the fact that by this point in the evening, we'd all consumed a good amount of beer too.

So the bottom line is that GotG to me is a great addition to Legendary because it offers a big change to the game (so you get your money's worth), but it does bog down the pace and requires much more focus which in turn erodes much of the socializing that otherwise typically takes place in a game without the expansion.

It will require quite a few more plays for the new elements to become more second nature to players, especially for those who tend to play this game more casually vs. regularly.
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Thanks for the follow-up! Those were my thoughts exactly! I simply avoid Thanos and the infinity gem villains. This seems to alleviate most of the bookkeeping. The thing about legendary I always loved is that it was laid back and relaxing most of the time. This lesson in elementary math on steroids just felt out of place in the game. It's not terrible or all that difficult, it's just annoying and not what I want to do as fun in my free time. Glad you guys still enjoyed the expansion. Be sure to play se games with the GOTG characters but with other schemes and masterminds from other expansions.
 
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Dan Briand
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Exactly, it's a great expansion for those who want to play on a more "serious" level with/against players who are more experiences, but for a more laid back, social gaming session I suggest keeping the GotG expansion out of the game setup.
 
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SpidermanGeek wrote:
Exactly, it's a great expansion for those who want to play on a more "serious" level with/against players who are more experiences, but for a more laid back, social gaming session I suggest keeping the GotG expansion out of the game setup.


I don't know if saying the GOTG expansion is for a more "serious" gamer that has more "experience" is accurate. That statement also has a negative connotation to it. My wife and I have probably played a little less than 100 games of Legendary between all Legendary games and expansions, so I would say we are very experienced. And I personally, play all cooperative games seriously.

That said, I do 100% agree that if you are playing competitively, or as you mentioned "against" other players, it can be slightly more "serious" because you're playing against the board AND other players, so there's a bit more to worry about and focus on. In addition to that, you're also 100% right that if you want a more laid back experience, which my wife and I do often grab Legendary to relax and have fun, this isn't the perfect expansion for you because there can be a lot going on.

My problem wasn't necessarily that this expansion was more serious or required more experience than other expansions. My problem was that it wasn't enjoyable because it felt like an exercise in elementary math. The problem was, it didn't feel thematic, but rather felt like a chore.

Some games include plenty of math. For example, I love Acquire even though it is math-heavy. The difference is, Acquire is thematic when it comes to it's math, and it never feels mundane.
 
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--Evil
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Do yourself a favor and ditch the cardboard shard tokens and get yourself some glass gems to denote individual shards:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3D...

I found a small bag at Michael's for a couple bucks.

Eliminates the futzing around and flipping the tokens. I have never looked back.

--Evil
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I'm thinking about using Dice Masters dice since ... they're not getting much other use. whistle
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Martin Bell
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I'm going to use the old L5R gem tokens as they have all the coresponding colours.
 
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