Recommend
5 
 Thumb up
 Hide
44 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Twilight Struggle» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Destalinization - USA headline? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Dan Likos
United States
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
In a recent game, as USA I had an opening hand of

Nuclear Test Ban
US/Japan Mutual Defense Act
Suez Crisis
Destalinization
Eastern European Unrest
Arab - Israeli War
Decolonization


I decided to headline Destalinization, and it worked out to an eventual win in final scoring.

I imagine that very top players can tell me many reasons why I should have chosen something else, but the following is/was my rational...

1) I would have to space Destalinization or Decolonization either way. Why not use Destalinization under my terms and space Decolonization turn 3.

2) The 4 relocated influence can be painful to move. He chose E.Germany, Poland, Finland, and Syria...which is what I expected...maybe not Syria, but I was grateful to see it go...and was now set up for a nice AR6 - Eastern European Unrest if nothing was done about it. Maybe forcing a weak USSR headline turn 2 (Warsaw, Comecon...)

3) Defcon is 5. So I have the opportunity to Coup into South America, or Thailand with the big OPS cards that I have...depending upon his placements.


What do you think?


1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jack Rudd
England
Bideford
Devon
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
I'd probably have headlined EEU, but I can see your reasoning.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jay Sachs
United States
Woodinville
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
Despite your hope, there is not even any inherent symbolism; gravity is simply a coincidence.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
So did you as the US set up with France at 0/0, or did you move in at 3*/0? If the former, he could DeStal in. If the later, you're playing whackamole with Suez (in your hand) and DeGaulle.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Max DuBoff
United States
New Brunswick
New Jersey
flag msg tools
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: / Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
badge
Habeo in animo vivere in perpetuum aut mori dum conor.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Destal is one of the most important cards for the USSR player. It can give him a crucial edge in Mid War regions, and when played in Early War, it can give him a jump on Asia and Europe too. I once heard Stefan Mecay talk about how Destal is one of the biggest variables in the game.

In that situation, I most likely would have headlined East European Unrest. You had some higher op cards, so you could've spared it. I definitely would've set up with no influence in France (although I don't prefer starting influence in France anyway, but that's another matter entirely).
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Barnhart
United States
Columbus
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I wonder why he didn't just empty Poland? Seems strange to take 1 out of each there.

Defcon is at 5, but if he has Duck and Cover, you are only getting one shot at a coup anywhere.

I would have HLd EEU as well.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Karl Bunyan
United Kingdom
London
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I would have gone with EEU. Destalinization early gives too much access to France and Asia and it's not hard to find places that are hard to coup out of, such as India, France, Chile, South Africa... Decolonization will come back sometime during or after round 3 once you've spaced it, but hey-ho - barring Vietnam Revolts the USSR has very few paths into Asia until then, and it's too early to care about Africa as the US.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Evgeny Reznikov
Israel
Haifa
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Well, I can't believe I'm the first one pointing this out, but your opening hand should have 8 cards in it, not 7.
Thus you can usually (depending on the rest of your hand, which doesn't look too grim to me - high op cards) hold Destal, and space Decol, or the other way around.
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Grant Johnson
United States
Cedar Park
Texas
flag msg tools
Well me known for eating cookie when me don't they shout
badge
Look! He try to throw loyal fans a curve!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
azuredarkness wrote:
Well, I can't believe I'm the first one pointing this out, but your opening hand should have 8 cards in it, not 7.
Thus you can usually (depending on the rest of your hand, which doesn't look too grim to me - high op cards) hold Destal, and space Decol, or the other way around.


This. I try as hard as I can if I get De-Stalinization or Decolonization as the US player to hold it until turn 3, then space race it. By the time the Soviets can get it the opportunity to make maximum impact is gone.

In this situation I'd hold DeStalinization and space Decolonization. There's a bit more limit on it, and hopefully the Soviets can be kept out of Central/South America long enough for the USA to get an advantage.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Spiker
United States
Woodbridge
Virginia
flag msg tools
If I were the Soviets and my opponent headlined Destal, I'd be annoyed but I'd get over it.

1 from FIN
2 from POL
1 from IRAQ

2 into Malaysia
1 into Chile
1 into South Africa

This gets you access to Africa and South America while blocking the US route to Thailand.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Emil Wachsmuth
msg tools
mb
2 into Malaysia can still be couped. I prefer getting even more access. 1 into India, 1 into Chile, 1 into South Africa, usually the last one goes into Morocco, so as to leave no good coup targets.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bill W
United Kingdom
Warrington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
EEU definitely best headline in that hand.

But if Destal is headlined and I am USSR, assuming 4EG, 4Pol, 1 somewhere in Eastern Europe in Set Up.

I would probably take from 1 Finland, 1 Eastern Europe, 1 Poland, 1 EG

and place:

1 Chile
1 South Africa
1 France
1 India (if holding I-P War) or 1 Thailand if holding Duck and Cover or maybe 1 Morocco or 1 Costa Rica.

USSR AR1, coup anywhere.

If USSR holds D&C then the Destal opening is disastrous as it has just handed them a large chunk of SE Asia.

The biggest loss here is that USSR almost certainly gets France and USA needs some luck to either remove USSR from India, or Chile or SA.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bence Tamás
Hungary
Budapest
MAGYARORSZÁG
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
I also contempleted headlining Deastal more than once, but the risks are just too high IMHO. It just simply gives USSR too much room regarding initiative.
Also I do see some sense in putting at least 1 influence into Malaysia as mentioned above. The benefit being, that your opponent either has to coup it (which is risky with a low card, and wastes a lot of OP if he puts a 3 or 4 into it), or simply take it over, but then the USSR still as a way into Thailand, which is the real prize (essentially another crisis to deal with for the US).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ioan Mitiu
Romania
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Not as a headline but ...
I almost never could think of a "proper circumstance" to headline "Destalinization*" but I should admit that I had moments when I played it in T1/AR1 ( usually after an "East European Unrest" headline and a failed USSR-coup at first move ).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gerhardt Schroeder
msg tools
mbmb
I wouldn't headline it, but I would consider playing it among the first couple cards of the round. Playing it early has the advantage of getting the event out of the way when the USSR has less influence to move around (so the USSR has to make hard choices) but by headlining it you are giving up the ops value.

That's significant because you can further minimize the value of the event using those 3(?) ops. You can either do the ops first and close off one or more countries to the event (e.g., take control of France to prevent the USSR from using it to get influence there) or do the event first and use the ops to react and minimize the harm (coup a country where he puts one influence, or add influence to neighboring countries to limit USSR spread.

This is especially the case since the USSR gets the first event after the headline phase (in addition to whatever the USSR headline does). So the USSR could put 1 influence into France, 1 influence into India, and 2 influence elsewhere (probably two out of South Africa / Chile / Malaysia / Thailand), and then immediately play a 4 ops card and take control of France and a neighbor of India. That's pretty bad. And it could be really bad depending on the USSR headline event.

So...don't do that.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Barnhart
United States
Columbus
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Doomcow wrote:
I wouldn't headline it, but I would consider playing it among the first couple cards of the round. Playing it early has the advantage of getting the event out of the way when the USSR has less influence to move around (so the USSR has to make hard choices) but by headlining it you are giving up the ops value.

That's significant because you can further minimize the value of the event using those 3(?) ops. You can either do the ops first and close off one or more countries to the event (e.g., take control of France to prevent the USSR from using it to get influence there) or do the event first and use the ops to react and minimize the harm (coup a country where he puts one influence, or add influence to neighboring countries to limit USSR spread.

This is especially the case since the USSR gets the first event after the headline phase (in addition to whatever the USSR headline does). So the USSR could put 1 influence into France, 1 influence into India, and 2 influence elsewhere (probably two out of South Africa / Chile / Malaysia / Thailand), and then immediately play a 4 ops card and take control of France and a neighbor of India. That's pretty bad. And it could be really bad depending on the USSR headline event.

So...don't do that.


I would never play it. Ideally you should hold it until Turn 3 and space it then, but you may as well space it now if you can't do that. The event is simply too good to give the USSR without making the draw it and play it. The later it comes out the less damage it can do. Even if you play it when Defcon is high if the USSR sticks to high stability countries (2 and 3) you aren't giving yourself a great coup chance.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex
Spain
Coruña
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I agree with Doomcow. I have played destal as UST1AR1 using the 3 points into France. I think USSR had fumbled the Iran coup completely. Even if that wasn't the case,I recall it wasn't very profitable for the Soviets.

I know all the reasons why you should "never" play destal as the US, but the two or three times I did, with the right setup, it wasn't as deadly, specially if you play with the +2 US influence rules that make the 1st turn something much more interesting and open.

I wouldn't headline it, though. You want to use those three points
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Barnhart
United States
Columbus
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
zosete wrote:
I agree with Doomcow. I have played destal as UST1AR1 using the 3 points into France. I think USSR had fumbled the Iran coup completely. Even if that wasn't the case,I recall it wasn't very profitable for the Soviets.

I know all the reasons why you should "never" play destal as the US, but the two or three times I did, with the right setup, it wasn't as deadly, specially if you play with the +2 US influence rules that make the 1st turn something much more interesting and open.

I wouldn't headline it, though. You want to use those three points


I agree that HLing doesn't make sense. But I still can't imagine, three OPS being worth letting the Soviets into S. America/Africa/Thailand. Also, with Suez and presumably DeGaulle still lurking - why France?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
King in Green
Japan
flag msg tools
mb
You can only put 2 into one country I think, though Vassal doesn't enforce it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gerhardt Schroeder
msg tools
mbmb
positivelyrob wrote:
zosete wrote:
I agree with Doomcow. I have played destal as UST1AR1 using the 3 points into France. I think USSR had fumbled the Iran coup completely. Even if that wasn't the case,I recall it wasn't very profitable for the Soviets.

I know all the reasons why you should "never" play destal as the US, but the two or three times I did, with the right setup, it wasn't as deadly, specially if you play with the +2 US influence rules that make the 1st turn something much more interesting and open.

I wouldn't headline it, though. You want to use those three points


I agree that HLing doesn't make sense. But I still can't imagine, three OPS being worth letting the Soviets into S. America/Africa/Thailand. Also, with Suez and presumably DeGaulle still lurking - why France?


Destalinization's a tough card no matter how you handle it, so it's kind of a "pick your poison". Holding it and spacing it in turn 3 is a solid option (likely to be the best in most games), but playing Destalinization in turn 1 can also be a reasonable option. For example, if you drew both Destalinization and Korean War in your opening hand, I might be inclined to play Destalinization phase 1 turn 1 and then space Korean War turn 3 (buys you time to shore up East Asia, and puts off a risky Korean War roll).

Honestly I don't worry too much about giving the Soviets access to Africa early via turn 1 Destalinization. They're going to get into Africa anyway, either via coup (a lot of stability 1 countries) or via Decolonization). South America's the bigger issue, but again they're probably going to get some kind of a presence there anyway, and the question becomes whether it's preferable to your other options given your hand.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Emil Wachsmuth
msg tools
mb
How is Korean War a bad card in turn 1? Just have the event trigger before you play your ops - if the war fails, congrats, you can now control South Korea. If it doesn't, play 2 into South Korea to put it a 2/1, effectively status quo. It is certainly a much better option than letting the USSR have De-stalinization.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gerhardt Schroeder
msg tools
mbmb
Fair enough. Point is just that turn 1 phase 1 Destalinization can be the less bad option depending on the game situation.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Emil Wachsmuth
msg tools
mb
I still don't think I've been presented with a situation where I would trigger it as US. Space it turn 1 in extreme situations maybe, but I would not play it.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Barnhart
United States
Columbus
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I have had DeStal played for me when I am the USSR and I have never felt anything less than crazy happy.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Max DuBoff
United States
New Brunswick
New Jersey
flag msg tools
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: / Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
badge
Habeo in animo vivere in perpetuum aut mori dum conor.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Doomcow wrote:
Fair enough. Point is just that turn 1 phase 1 Destalinization can be the less bad option depending on the game situation.


Destal is in many cases the most powerful USSR card in the game. There, I said it.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Barnhart
United States
Columbus
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MD1616 wrote:
Doomcow wrote:
Fair enough. Point is just that turn 1 phase 1 Destalinization can be the less bad option depending on the game situation.


Destal is in many cases the most powerful USSR card in the game. There, I said it.


DROPPING TRUTH BOMBS!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.