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Android: Netrunner» Forums » General

Subject: Netrunners.co.uk: The Eliphant in the Room rss

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David Paterson
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Site Article: http://netrunners.co.uk/articles/The%20Eliphant%20in%20the%2...


Here I have a good ole fashioned moan about a vastly over powered card which finds its way into virtually every single Corp deck yet never gets spoken about!

No, it's not Astro or Jackson...
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Arto H
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I kind of agree with this article. I always felt Eli 1.0 was designed to be an overall booster for the corp from the beginning and meant to be played in practically every deck. There might be some very specialized decks like PE which doesn't necessary want Eli 1.0 but that is a bit off topic.

Eli 1.0 was needed especially earlier in game when the card pool was smaller and corp couldn't make so optimized decks. Older players remember Gabe (and later Andy) winning majority of the time so corp needed cards which just made almost all corp decks overall better. With a bigger card pool today I don't feel Eli 1.0 might not be so great design decision anymore. I feel it made sense the corp to be weak in the beginning because corp had only a few choices and runners could guess the hidden much ICE better. Bigger card pool and more options naturally benefits the player who plays with hidden information. Also corp decks today are much specialized with the game plan and especially agenda selection has improved a lot. Cards like Eli 1.0 will be problem now when corp doesn't need a big boost anymore because corp can focus on their game plan and hidden information has become even bigger benefit which was not the case when Eli got released.

Jackson fills a bit same role as Eli but Jackson also fixes unlucky agenda flood also which can be seen as flaw of the game. Design for Jackson was perfect.

I feel it is runners turn to get overall boost now. Not necessary just better overall cards like Eli 1.0 but cards which helps runner to react better to different corp decks. Now I feel I can make a good runner against Glacier or good runner against NEH but not against both which boils down to "guess the metagame". I would want to see more tutors for runner. Reprinting old netrunner card: 3 cost event for finding any any card from the stack as neutral might be a good option.

(One ok option against Eli is BlacKat breaking it with 1 datasucker token and 1 stealth credit but that's a 3 card combo)
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Jeff Gum
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While I agree that Eli is a great card, honestly, what does it do that Rainbow doesn't? Both are 3 to rez, 4 strength ETRs that make up for their porousness by being relatively taxing for their cost to break. Why is Eli considered so obviously better, then?
 
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Explosive 6
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No Eli's in my Making News deck, gone with TMI instead. I don't even like the art on Eli either personally.

As for breaking it I've used Battering Ram in a few shaper decks that gets through for three credits or 2 stacked Eli's for 5. Apart from the higher install cost and double memory it compares pretty well against Corroder in my experience, especially if you've got some recurring credits in your rig.
 
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Explosive 6
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Tekkactus wrote:
While I agree that Eli is a great card, honestly, what does it do that Rainbow doesn't? Both are 3 to rez, 4 strength ETRs that make up for their porousness by being relatively taxing for their cost to break. Why is Eli considered so obviously better, then?


Well the obvious downside to Rainbow is that it can be broken by a lot more Icebreakers. I've not actually ever run into anyone using Rainbow, would welcome feedback from those who've used and played against it.
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Arto H
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Tekkactus wrote:
While I agree that Eli is a great card, honestly, what does it do that Rainbow doesn't? Both are 3 to rez, 4 strength ETRs that make up for their porousness by being relatively taxing for their cost to break. Why is Eli considered so obviously better, then?


That's an easy answer. Andromeda with suckers and Yog is still very common. For example NEH doesn't have enough ICE to turn every central taxing so Andy will just walk over with one sucker token. Eli is always taxing ICE and runner using 2 clicks is almost always good trade (if you don't put Eli alone HQ and get siphon/legwork but that's just bad play).
 
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Jeff Gum
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Explosive6 wrote:
Tekkactus wrote:
While I agree that Eli is a great card, honestly, what does it do that Rainbow doesn't? Both are 3 to rez, 4 strength ETRs that make up for their porousness by being relatively taxing for their cost to break. Why is Eli considered so obviously better, then?


Well the obvious downside to Rainbow is that it can be broken by a lot more Icebreakers. I've not actually ever run into anyone using Rainbow, would welcome feedback from those who've used and played against it.


You don't always have an icebreaker. You always have clicks.

Quote:
That's an easy answer. Andromeda with suckers and Yog is still very common. For example NEH doesn't have enough ICE to turn every central taxing so Andy will just walk over with one sucker token. Eli is always taxing ICE and runner using 2 clicks is almost always good trade (if you don't put Eli alone HQ and get siphon/legwork but that's just bad play).


The Datasucker argument, I've found, always seems to rely on the assumption that you'll always have more Sucker counters than you need. In practice, I've found that Runners will almost always bite the bullet and pay 3 to break Rainbow with Corroder and save the counters for other, scarier ice, unless it's a hail mary run.

Again, I'm not denying Eli is the stronger card. I just don't think it's that much stronger, and if it's not a huge jump in power level, then Eli probably isn't broken, since no one would argue that of Rainbow.
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Bradley Galbraith
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Explosive6 wrote:
Tekkactus wrote:
While I agree that Eli is a great card, honestly, what does it do that Rainbow doesn't? Both are 3 to rez, 4 strength ETRs that make up for their porousness by being relatively taxing for their cost to break. Why is Eli considered so obviously better, then?


Well the obvious downside to Rainbow is that it can be broken by a lot more Icebreakers. I've not actually ever run into anyone using Rainbow, would welcome feedback from those who've used and played against it.


I test Rainbow out when I can, and I sort of agree with Tekk. It's easy to get through since they just need any icebreaker, whereas Eli keeps them out until they get a fracter or choose to spend the clicks. They have a similar tax rate once the runner can get through. Consider the more popular breakers: Corroder costs 3 to get through, Gordian costs 3 to get through, Mimic or Yog.0 both need a datasucker token or parasite to supplement it, the central breakers from Criminal all cost 3 or 4 to break it. It also sucks for Overmind, 4 and a power token.

It certainly has weaknesses, Kit and Quetzal both can render this ice practically useless. Stealth Kit especially makes this Ice thin; once she's got Refractor and a lockpick/cloak she can get through for 1 every turn. Battering Ram and Gordian can make the placement of a Rainbow into cheaper runs. If you ever see someone run high strength breakers (Morningstar, Torch) it's just 1. Overall though, I think that if you can't afford the 3 influence for whatever amazing influence splash you needed, Rainbows can fill that space, but don't expect the runner to stay out for long.
 
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Zak Jarvis
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Explosive6 wrote:
Well the obvious downside to Rainbow is that it can be broken by a lot more Icebreakers. I've not actually ever run into anyone using Rainbow, would welcome feedback from those who've used and played against it.


'Eli 1.0' is essentially a taxing ICE. If the runner really wants to get in, they will. 'Rainbow' is very similar (although slightly more of a hard stop early on). Mostly, it taxes one less than 'Eli 1.0' but the runner can't choose to use clicks instead. And it costs no influence.

It's pretty good in Jinteki, especially if running either 'Encyrpted Portals' or 'Unorthodox Predictions'.
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simon bradford
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Explosive6 wrote:
Tekkactus wrote:
While I agree that Eli is a great card, honestly, what does it do that Rainbow doesn't? Both are 3 to rez, 4 strength ETRs that make up for their porousness by being relatively taxing for their cost to break. Why is Eli considered so obviously better, then?


Well the obvious downside to Rainbow is that it can be broken by a lot more Icebreakers. I've not actually ever run into anyone using Rainbow, would welcome feedback from those who've used and played against it.


Oh! Oh! Finally my expertise is required!

Rainbow can be a lot more finicky than Eli. Placement matters with Rainbow for example. You place a Rainbow behind a Tollbooth and suddenly it's only an extra 1 credit tax when Gordian Blade hits the table. Rainbow also has to keep in mind the runner's entire breaker suite. Every now and then you'll hit a runner playing Torch, or Morning Star. Finally Eli is much better at dealing with AI breakers. Rainbow costs 2 against Knight and Darwin. Eli doubles that. Even against the Atman at 4 the 2 credit tax from Eli is non-negligible, but one hardly seems worth it. Lastly you have to watch out for other anti-synergy derived from Rainbow. Are you running Mother Goddess? Then Rainbow can be a liability.
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Zeb
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I found the article very different to read with several spelling and grammar mistakes.

I thought I would agree with the article, but there were a few instances which made me question the perspective. For example:
Article wrote:
Of course it goes without saying that Astroscript is also overpowered and needs some hard counters

Article wrote:

...Corroder, itself being a vastly overpowered breaker which knows no equal.


Edit: Removed mistaken assumption
 
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David Paterson
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Zebadiah wrote:
I found the article very different to read with several spelling and grammar mistakes (including the title).


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Zeb
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Chimpster wrote:
Zebadiah wrote:
I found the article very different to read with several spelling and grammar mistakes (including the title).


shake


Sorry, just got it

I assumed it was an error considering the spelling and grammar mistakes in the article itself.
 
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Felix Hathaway
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The Shaper Cerberous breaker actually looks like the best answer to me. Going through 4 times for a credit each seems crazy!
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Ony Moose
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Battering Ram also breaks Eli for only 3C, which is slightly better than corroder.


About the only actually played ICE where Battering ram works out cheaper than Corroder!
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Malefact
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Quote:
Battering Ram also breaks Eli for only 3C, which is slightly better than corroder.


About the only actually played ICE where Battering ram works out cheaper than Corroder!


Also Battering Ram breaks two Elis for 5c, which is a fair consideration given how often you see corps stack 'em together.

But yeah, bring on Lady H1!

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Daniel Wray
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Quote:
There might be some very specialized decks like PE which doesn't necessary want Eli 1.0


3x Eli is an important influence spend in my Jinteki PE kill deck.

However, I agree not every deck needs Eli, but it is a terribly efficient piece of ice that successfully taxes throughout most games.
 
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