Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
14 Posts

Might & Magic Heroes» Forums » Rules

Subject: Clarification on damage and precise attack rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Mr Nandor
msg tools
Hi

1) When my stack is being hit, for example I receive 2 damage, do I have to start assigning to an elite version of creature (with 2 damages it gets eliminated), or I can eliminate 2 basic versions instead?
Also when someone is attacking with precise attack, he only chooses the stack or if the above situation is applicable, he also decides how to assign the damages?
(as far as I understand already, it is not possible to turn 2 elites into 2 basics in case of a 2 damage hit, if I started to score hits on a token, I have to continue until its eliminated.

2) if I roll a fortune or use the fortune token, do I lose my ability to reroll 1 miss from the precise attack ability? Or after rerolling the misses, am I allowed to reroll one d8 again?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Berserker in peace
Hong Kong
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
1) In principle the defending player can freely distribute damage to any stack and any unit, elite or basic.
Yes we cannot spread 2 damage over (downgrade) two elite units at the same time, instead of assigning the full damage to a single elite unit and have it killed.

But if it is an attack using Precise, the attacker can specify a particular enemy Stack or a token/unit. Only after that stack/unit is eliminated, the defender can decide which stack/unit takes up any remaining damage.

2) See p.14
Quote:
Re-rolling Dice
Sometimes players have a chance or are forced to re-roll dice. Remember that each die can be re-rolled only once per attack.
For example: the Attacker rolls 4 Attack Dice (d8)and the Elite Die. He hits on a result of 4 or more and gets 1, 3, 4, 7 and the “Fortune”
result on the Elite Die. His opponent has an Artefact Card called “Ring of Misfortune” which forces the Attacker to re-roll all hits. The Attacker first re-rolls 7 thanks to the “Fortune” result and then 1, 3 and 4 because of the ring. Even if the die re-rolled because of his “Fortune” hits, it is not re-rolled again.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Austria
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ulfhethnar wrote:

Yes we cannot spread 2 damage over (downgrade) two elite units at the same time, instead of assigning the full damage to a single elite unit and have it killed.


The FAQ disagrees on this point.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Berserker in peace
Hong Kong
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
Tzer wrote:
ulfhethnar wrote:

Yes we cannot spread 2 damage over (downgrade) two elite units at the same time, instead of assigning the full damage to a single elite unit and have it killed.

The FAQ disagrees on this point.


The only answer I find relevant but somewhat obscure in the FAQ is this:
Quote:
Q.In what order do units get damage in a stack of units with the tough skill?
A.It is best seen in this example: A stack of 3 Elite Liches (Might 3 units of Necropolis) receives 2 damage. The first damage flips over one of the units to its basic side. For the second wound, the player either assigns the damage to this lich (marking it with a damage token) or flips a second elite Lich over to the basic side. In this example, the player decides the hurt the basic Lich, marking it with a damage token. In the next clash, the Lich stack receives 3 damage. The first wound must kill the already injured Lich (As per tough rules), which kills it.
For the rest, the player decides to flip over another Elite Lich(second damage) and marks it with a damage marker (third damage).


However, that answer seems to contradict the rule of Tough:
Quote:
... If the Defender has more than one Tough units in one Stack, he cannot assign Damage to a new token until there is even one Damage Token on another unit (i.e. he has to assign all Damage to the same unit until it is eliminated or there is no more Damage to assign).


And the rule of assigning damage is pretty clear:
Quote:
­ The Defender keeps assigning Damage to the chosen unit until it is eliminated or there is no more Damage to assign.
­ The Defender keeps assigning Damage to the chosen Stack until it is eliminated or there is no more Damage to assign.
­ If a Stack is eliminated and there is still Damage to assign, the Defender chooses another Stack in his Hero's Army and
repeats the process of assigning Damage.


What do you think?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Austria
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think for the purpose of damage, the elite side of a unit and the regular side don't count as the "same" unit. Flipping a unit then would count as "eliminating" it. I think it's only worded in that way to make it clear that in any given stack there can always only be 1 unit that has damage markers.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Berserker in peace
Hong Kong
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
Tzer wrote:
I think for the purpose of damage, the elite side of a unit and the regular side don't count as the "same" unit.


The rule does not seem to mention or even imply that when an Elite unit is turned over it becomes a "different" unit.

Note that "the chosen stack" in the second * clearly refers to the same stack mentioned in the previous *:
Quote:
Assigning Damage
Whenever a Hero's Army is dealt any Damage, the following steps should be observed:
­* The Defender chooses the Stack that will be assigned Damage.
­* The Defender must assign all Damage dealt by current attack (hits from d8 + extra Damage from dE + other modifiers, if applicable) to the chosen Stack.


Not trying to be pedantic, but by the same token, "the chosen unit" in the second * should refer to the same basic/elite unit receiving damage in the first *.
Quote:
*A Basic Level unit dealt 1 Damage is eliminated. An Elite Level unit dealt 1 Damage is turned over to it Basic Level side.
*­The Defender keeps assigning Damage to the chosen unit until it is eliminated or there is no more Damage to assign.


If an elite unit becomes a different unit/token after taking 1 damage, then the rule could have said something like "the Defender has to assign 1 Damage to any 1 unit (but not necessarily the same unit/token) at a time." The second sentence of the rule would become meaningless simply because the Defender does not need to "keep assigning Damage to the chosen unit [or token]" and can in principle freely distribute damage to any unit/token in the stack.
It would also be strange if "the chosen unit [or token]" is understood independently of the previous sentence, especially when the bullets on p14 are presented as steps instead of separate points.

See this also:
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/16686747#16686747

My two cents.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Austria
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
What do you think the FAQ means, then?
I wouldn't be surprised if it's meant to contradict the rules in order to make the intention clearer of how the rule is supposed to work as opposed to how it was written. That's what FAQs are for, clarification.

I also have to add, if it did work the way you propose, it would also significantly weaken Elite units...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Berserker in peace
Hong Kong
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
I am not so sure about the FAQ. The thing is I find the explanation about Tough is somewhat confusing to me. If what is implied in the FAQ (which is trying to clarify Tough rather than the general rule of damage distribution) is accurate, then the wording in the official rules must be problematic, although I find the linguistic context in the official rules clear enough.

I also don't think the way I interpret it (or the way I think the rule clearly presents) will weaken Elite units significantly. For one thing, it can already absorb an extra damage compared to the Basic units. And the addition of Elite die (as long as there is one Elite unit) is also a great plus.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Austria
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ulfhethnar wrote:

I also don't think the way I interpret it (or the way I think the rule clearly presents) will weaken Elite units significantly. For one thing, it can already absorb an extra damage compared to the Basic units. And the addition of Elite die (as long as there is one Elite unit) is also a great plus.


The difference is for example in an army comprised only of tough units. Getting 2 damage on a stack with units where none have tough means we will have a token less rather than being able to flip 2 units, which means 1 less attack die.

But now I'm actually curious what the designer has to say about this
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mr Nandor
msg tools
Then I see this confused others too. The general rule I discovered is that if something is not written in the rulebook then its now allowed.

Based on the precise attack rule (choose one Stack and it will be dealt all the damage) + the standard damage rules (only Stack is mentioned, nothing about tokens) indicates for me that the way to distribute damage is by starting with an elite level, downgrade to basic and then if there is more damage then start over.

However there is some rule which mentiones stack/unit/tokens together in connection with damage (this must have been the toughtness ability) and this confused me.
its still a question though that if I get one damage, I turn down an elite or can I just remove 1 basic
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Berserker in peace
Hong Kong
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
Uristenzor wrote:
the standard damage rules (only Stack is mentioned, nothing about tokens) indicates for me that the way to distribute damage is by starting with an elite level, downgrade to basic and then if there is more damage then start over.


The standard damage rules do mention the token (unit):
* The Defender keeps assigning Damage to the chosen unit until it is eliminated or there is no more Damage to assign.
­
* The Defender keeps assigning Damage to the chosen Stack until it is eliminated or there is no more Damage to assign.
­* If a Stack is eliminated and there is still Damage to assign, the Defender chooses another Stack in his Hero's Army and
repeats the process of assigning Damage.

The confusion may disappear if the bolded statement is not there. But the statement seems clear enough, though.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mr Nandor
msg tools
ulfhethnar wrote:

The standard damage rules do mention the token (unit):
* The Defender keeps assigning Damage to the chosen unit until it is eliminated or there is no more Damage to assign.


yes, but it only says if there is an elite/tough unit which can handle multiple hits you can not stop on half way distributing the damage.
This says nothing about choosing between basic or elite
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Berserker in peace
Hong Kong
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
No, it is just the regular damage rules (p14), not for Tough.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joe K
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ulfhethnar wrote:
Uristenzor wrote:
the standard damage rules (only Stack is mentioned, nothing about tokens) indicates for me that the way to distribute damage is by starting with an elite level, downgrade to basic and then if there is more damage then start over.


The standard damage rules do mention the token (unit):
* The Defender keeps assigning Damage to the chosen unit until it is eliminated or there is no more Damage to assign.
­
* The Defender keeps assigning Damage to the chosen Stack until it is eliminated or there is no more Damage to assign.
­* If a Stack is eliminated and there is still Damage to assign, the Defender chooses another Stack in his Hero's Army and
repeats the process of assigning Damage.

The confusion may disappear if the bolded statement is not there. But the statement seems clear enough, though.



Thanks for making clear how assigning Damage works.

I´m playing the german version, at least there it is not specifically mentioned. However, I played it exactly that way since I regarded it to be obvious to do so.

So, I also believe that either player (normally the defending player, otherwise the attacking player with "precise Attack") may chose which unit (token) to be attacked. It can be clever to kill a base unit. It could also be clever to kill an elite unit (i.e. downgrade to base unit).

Edit:
Thumbs up for thread, OP and answering person.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.