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Subject: Some new Race ideas (what do you think?) rss

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Wesley Valk
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These are all the races I still like to see in Smallworld Expanions.

What do you think? Are they balanced? Too powerful? Too weak?

To balance it more the race-numbers can be changed. So powerful powers get less race-tokens.




Succubi - Succubi use one token less when attacking male races, they use one token more each time they attack other female races, non-gender races are immune. Male races that attack Succubi also need to use one token more than usual, and female races that attack succubi can use one token less.

Incubi - Everytime the Incubi attack and kill a female racemember they gain the token instead and can use the enthralled female as their own slave for defence and attacking. The limit of enthralled females is 5 however.

Minotaurs - Starting on the edge of the map, the minotaurs may grow toward another players race and attack it with (number of minotaur-possessed tiles that are already on the map, so if there are three tiles occupied by the minotaurs it means you use 3 minotaurs less, you still need 2 minotaurs for the tile itself though) less tokens. This is kinda like a bull-rush effect, the longer they charge, the harder the damage and the less tokens you may use to defeat the foes.

Revenants - Whenever a Revenant is killed, it may roll the dice, rolling any number means that the attacker also loses a race token.

Medusae - Medusa kill two tokens instead of just one when they conquer a region from another race. There are only 2 medusa however, so you can only have a maximum of 7.

Gargoyles - In decline the gargoyles become much more powerful, you need three tokens (+ the two you already need to conquer the region) to beat them once they are in decline.

Leprechauns - Leprechauns can buy themselves out of trouble, instead of letting your leprechaun die you can give up one coin instead and re-gain your killed leprechaun token.

Bandits - Everytime your bandits conquer a region from another race you may role the dice, rolling 3 means you steal 3 coins from the other player, all other dice-sides means you get nothing.

Bogeymen - Once every turn your bogeymen scare away a single group of other races for free, the race you scare away moves away into the hand of the other player but doesn't die.

Angels - When you have Angels, your previous in decline race becomes immune to dying, other races may still conquer the tile they occupie, but they share the tile with the declined race token.

Gremlins - Gremlins ignore and destroy any defense power of other races that are on the board. Mountains are immune to this power.

Djinn - Comes with one lamp item. This lamp-item can be used once to steal/change a special power from/with another player. So the player gets your special power and you gain the power of the other player. This can only be done once in the game.

Druids - Get three extra wolf tokens, these three tokens can move appart from the Druids and can only attack other races on the edge of the map (in the first round, after the first round they can move around like any other race). They can however only attack races that have less than 3 tokens on a region, so only races that have 1 or 2 tokens on the map can be attacked and killed by the wolves, the wolves themselves are immune to attacks.

Dullahan/Headless Horsemen - These collect every kill they make during their time on the board, after they go in decline or when its the end of the game you count every kill, for every five of them you get 2 extra coins. Race-tokens killed by the Dullahan stay dead until the dullahan go in decline.

Redcaps - Everytime the Redcaps kill a token from another player they become more powerful in their next attack, needing 1 token less for their next attack.(this power resets every turn)

Clowns/Jesters/Harlequins - When one of these clowns is killed by another player, that player receives a balloon, which means he can't kill/attack clowns in his next move or in the next turn, after the next round has passed the balloon pops and is discarted into the box again and the other player can attack/kill clowns again. The clowns get 6 balloons.


so what do you guys think? Thanks for the eventual back-up!
 
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Kevin Farrell
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Leprechauns are already in it
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J
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Hi welcome. I don't mind doing a quick overview for you. Here is a small introduction I have for first time would be race designers.

First of all don't take anything I say very personally. There might be sometimes where my comments might come off as being direct. Know that though I'm trying to be strict I'm not trying to be mean. Lets just say I’ve been doing this for a long time. Here are some standards for designing races. Non of these are specifically directed at your races yet.

Second I'll remind you that usually the Race equivalent of a Attribute will have one more unit than the Attribute (like how the Hill Attribute gives 4 units whereas the Human race gives 5). There are exceptions but for the most part this holds true.

Third
-Standard Races/Attributes that assist with offense or defense while active usually have 6/5 units.
-Standard Races/Attributes that score bonus points usually have 5/4 units unless there is some inherent weakness to them.
-Standard Races with pure movement abilities usually have 7 tokens whereas no attribute should only have a movement ability cause Flying will trump it no matter what.
-Standard Races/Attributes that have abilities while in decline and while active are usually docked yet another race token.
-Any Races with more than 8 units should have a detriment
-If a power is good enough it might be docked another race token like how commando is an offense attribute with 4 tokens.
-Just because you have an idea for a power doe not mean that you can raise/lower unit counts to make it balanced sometimes a power just cannot be balanced no matter how you massage it.


Fourth While SW is a self balancing game try to avoid abilities that are strictly inferior, superior or identical to abilities that already exist. While some do exist officially it is generally not interesting or balanced to do so. If you argue that an unbalanced power is fine because people will pay more/less for it or because other players will attack you more/less when you have it you will simply lose credibility in our eyes and it won't help your case.

With that out of the way lets get started though it is much harder without you telling the number of units you were considering for each race.

Gancanagh wrote:

Succubi - Succubi use one token less when attacking male races, they use one token more each time they attack other female races, non-gender races are immune. Male races that attack Succubi also need to use one token more than usual, and female races that attack succubi can use one token less.

Incubi - Everytime the Incubi attack and kill a female racemember they gain the token instead and can use the enthralled female as their own slave for defence and attacking. The limit of enthralled females is 5 however.

I personally don't like these two. While the concept of being extra strong against some people and extra weak against other's might sound great you ultimately end up with a faction that will offensively target 1 or 2 players specifically which is generally not a good thing. There are times that you want to target a player, namely cause they are ahead but having a faction specifically themed around it can lead to king making which is not a good thing. When it comes to offensive abilities you generally want them to affect all other player reasonably equally.



Quote:
Minotaurs - Starting on the edge of the map, the minotaurs may grow toward another players race and attack it with (number of minotaur-possessed tiles that are already on the map, so if there are three tiles occupied by the minotaurs it means you use 3 minotaurs less, you still need 2 minotaurs for the tile itself though) less tokens. This is kinda like a bull-rush effect, the longer they charge, the harder the damage and the less tokens you may use to defeat the foes.

This faction is disgustingly overpowered. Once you get 1 region bam you have commando vs any opponent and it just gets worse and worse as you conquer more and more regions. I would not play with it.


Quote:
Revenants - Whenever a Revenant is killed, it may roll the dice, rolling any number means that the attacker also loses a race token.

This is a pretty common variant. Usually they go with the attacker flat out loses a unit or something. Itwould probably work at 6 but a little uninteresting.

Quote:
Medusae - Medusa kill two tokens instead of just one when they conquer a region from another race. There are only 2 medusa however, so you can only have a maximum of 7.

This is in the top 2 most proposed variant abilities (the other most proposed ability is 1 that lets you copy an additional ability) I have explained many many times why this cannot work at any number and is underpowered/a king making power no matter how you slice it and is entirely unfeasible. I don't want to give the entire speech right now but you can ask if you want me to go and find it and paste it again.


Quote:
Gargoyles - In decline the gargoyles become much more powerful, you need three tokens (+ the two you already need to conquer the region) to beat them once they are in decline.

These guys are just obviously the counterpart to both Trolls and White Ladies. 1 less defense while active than trolls but 1 more while in decline whereas white ladies is this ability exactly but infinite more defense in decline. 5 units would be fair but the proper wording for this is not "you need three tokens (+ the two you already need to conquer the region)" but to give them 20 "X tokens" and to put 2 of them on each region while in declline.

Quote:
Leprechauns - Leprechauns can buy themselves out of trouble, instead of letting your leprechaun die you can give up one coin instead and re-gain your killed leprechaun token.

As has already been mentioned Leprechauns is an official faction but that's not entirely important. What you proposed here is basically what the Leaders expansion already offers. It's also a pretty bad power overall cause usually you don't lose a lot of units till you are getting ready to decline

Quote:
Bandits - Everytime your bandits conquer a region from another race you may role the dice, rolling 3 means you steal 3 coins from the other player, all other dice-sides means you get nothing.

No no no no. A 1/6th chance for a 6 point Swing is obscene. Small World Underground already has the Thieving ability and Small World above ground has ransacking which still has the stealing from opponents elements without the "well that lucky string of die rolls just decided the game" element.

Quote:
Bogeymen - Once every turn your bogeymen scare away a single group of other races for free, the race you scare away moves away into the hand of the other player but doesn't die.

Basically Dragon Master but weaker.

Quote:
Angels - When you have Angels, your previous in decline race becomes immune to dying, other races may still conquer the tile they occupie, but they share the tile with the declined race token.

What happens if you conquer your own decline race? Interesting concept though very strong and probably unbalanced since if you choose it to be so your entire declined race is basically untouchable.

Quote:
Gremlins - Gremlins ignore and destroy any defense power of other races that are on the board. Mountains are immune to this power.

What does defense power mean? I'm guessing you mean structures in which case No. I've seen this one proposed a lot before and the problem with it is again this is just a target race which targets 1 or 2 players specifically. Further there are very very few factions which you can use it on since the majority of defensive structures are infinite defense.

Quote:
Djinn - Comes with one lamp item. This lamp-item can be used once to steal/change a special power from/with another player. So the player gets your special power and you gain the power of the other player. This can only be done once in the game.

Too unfair. The issue is if a low unit count attribute is currently being used they can trade for it and get it with a much high unit count than there should be whereas the opponent who gets the new power is screwed. Further several attributes like seafaring grant the ability to hold unique terrains to have unique structures which is very unfair to be able to automatically undo.

Quote:
Druids - Get three extra wolf tokens, these three tokens can move appart from the Druids and can only attack other races on the edge of the map (in the first round, after the first round they can move around like any other race). They can however only attack races that have less than 3 tokens on a region, so only races that have 1 or 2 tokens on the map can be attacked and killed by the wolves, the wolves themselves are immune to attacks.

I have no idea what you mean.

Quote:
Dullahan/Headless Horsemen - These collect every kill they make during their time on the board, after they go in decline or when its the end of the game you count every kill, for every five of them you get 2 extra coins. Race-tokens killed by the Dullahan stay dead until the dullahan go in decline.

How is this just not a utterly pathetic version of orcs/pillaging which get 1 coin every time they conquer a region with any unit on it?

Quote:
Redcaps - Everytime the Redcaps kill a token from another player they become more powerful in their next attack, needing 1 token less for their next attack.(this power resets every turn)

Is the ability cumulative?

Quote:
Clowns/Jesters/Harlequins - When one of these clowns is killed by another player, that player receives a balloon, which means he can't kill/attack clowns in his next move or in the next turn, after the next round has passed the balloon pops and is discarted into the box again and the other player can attack/kill clowns again. The clowns get 6 balloons.

This isn't that great of an ability. Most defensive abilities that just give a flat unit + will do the job just as well and gaurd against that first initial attack also.

__________________


Overall a valiant attempt but none of the powers jump out at mean as being obviously good as many are weak versions of existing abilities, king making abilities, or player targeting abilities. In the future if you can include unit counts you think would be good that would help cause it would give an indication of how you value the ability.
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Désirée Greverud
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first off, search through the forums a bit. Many/most of these races and ideas have been proposed before. Some have been fine tuned & tweaked and have art and are in use in many of our games already.

Next, while I don't always see eye-to-eye with J, he is dead on here in all his comments. You'd do well to read his comments very carefully and understand what he is saying and use that info when creating races.
 
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Chris
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I think there are far too many "check out my new race" threads already tbh. So many people pick it up after, say, Ticket To Ride, and have this urge to get every expansion and sleep every night inside the game box. Literally.

Small World is a nice fun game to get started with, but there's so so so much more out there, and once you're 50 games into a collection, chances are you won't really give Small World much consideration at all.
 
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Wesley Valk
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I'm not in possession of the basic game (the one with the dragon, orcs, elves and others) I have underground + all expansions, I really don't like the races in the original game.

Maybe that's why there are duplicates, and forgot about the Leprechauns :-p

It wasn't a real serious attempt to create the races myself, I just think these races would be cool in smallworld because they are famous monsters. The powers could be upgraded or made weaker, I dunno, they are just the base-ideas.

Some are very hard to explain for me 100% as I don't know the words in English. The wolf tokens that come with the Druids attack appart from the druids, they are just 3 extra attack tokens that travel as a pack and which are immune to attacks. They can enter the map somewhere else than the Druids themselves and attack only enemies that have one or two tokens.

What I don't understand is how can some of these be overpowered while the Elves are in the game? Which are basicially immortal. Those are the most unbalanced race in the game.
 
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J
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Gancanagh wrote:

What I don't understand is how can some of these be overpowered while the Elves are in the game? Which are basicially immortal. Those are the most unbalanced race in the game.


To put it plainly the developers messed up with the elves. You'll notice that the elf ability is identical to the Immortal attribute from Small World Underground
Elves: 6 Units
Immortal: 4 units

It seems that between releasing SW and SWU they realized that Elves were a unit too strong so they removed a unit from the identical Immortal ability.

This is similar to Dwarfs who were too weak in the base game. That being said Small Worlds self balancing mechanism ends up taking care of it but it would have been better had they rebalanced these factions at some point.

That being said Elves will appear overpowered to certain play styles and in 2 player matches. People have complained that they are unstoppable cause whenever you attack them they just gain their units back. Well why are you attacking a race that's specifically designed around being harder to attack? You simply want to play to outscore them which includes destroying their declined race and putting them in a position where they aren't scoring as much as you are. Unfortunately in 2 player where being hyper aggressive is much better this can be very hard.
 
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