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Warhammer: Diskwars» Forums » General

Subject: Flying disks should ignore terrain during the melee phase too... rss

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Asen Aleksandrov
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...so my Vargheists can actually @%$!# engage on hills. This message brought to you by my butthurtness. I played 3 games today and all of them involved plucky Empire disks camping on hills.
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Jonathan
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We haven't had a ton of luck with Undead here. It seems like they are fine if they charge home, but do very poorly if they get charged, more so than any other faction. Vargheists have definitely failed to impress.
 
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Rex Gator
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To echo Jonathan's thoughts we had a small 4 player tournament Saturday. Two players brought Vampire Counts. They did not win a game. Against my double bloodthirster/daemonette list I won initiative on turn two and by end of turn two in each game they conceded. Not sure VC are ready for prime time.
 
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Benjamin Bottorff
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Funnily enough, vampire counts recently 'won' a game here for the first time in awhile. It was actually a black coach that allowed them to pull off what would have been a very strait forward victory except for the luck their enemy got the last three turns (essentially, Luther with a shield of faith just repeatedly failed to die for three strait turns, aside from him the vampires would have had a board wipe on turn 4, as the vampires had kill heroes it was technically a loss, with any other requirement including deployment zones they could easily have won).

Still, any one victory doesn't really prove much considering how much often they lose though we have had some success using them as a support regiment so that an army can take advantage of reanimate without having to be entirely built around it. I'd still be willing to believe that there is some approach to the vampire counts which counteracts their notorious unreliability and dependance on initiative somewhat but if there is we certainly have not discovered it.

As for the main comment: If Varghiests were the only thing that it applied to I'd be fine with it but I think I wouldn't want bloodthirsters and azhag to have the same capability.
 
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Asen Aleksandrov
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Velensk, could you recall what this winning Coach VC list looked like? I am very curious.

As to their quality as an army, I myself don't know why I play them. I used to win a lot with Orcs, and I had average success with Chaos, but with VC I either lose horribly or just barely squeeze a 1vp win with my entire army dead for most of the game.
 
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Asen Aleksandrov
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I'm not using this list, but it might be hilarious:


Here's my plan:
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Benjamin Bottorff
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TbH, you could as much attribute it to his opponent lack of attention and choice in army as well as vampire counts going first on turns 2/3

I wasn't in the game (technically) but a relatively new player was trying out the vampire counts. His opponent was trying a priest heavy empire army with two warrior priests and two knights panther, Volkmar and Luther, and a spattering of infantry. No ranged attacks of any kind. I thought it looked pretty inflexible personally but I have seen that kind of army crush other melee armies. I think however that it was a poor choice against VC despite being a melee army because the vampire counts don't have a lot of defense against ranged attacks/spells while they do have a number of ways of dealing with melee enemies.

Basically on turn two the coach was able to pin a warrior priest and Luther and a couple suicide wolves pinned the knights panther and the other warrior priest. The remaining knights panther wasn't enough activation phase damage to kill the coach (and at my suggestion the wolves had been moved in such a way that it was impossible to impact them without pinning your own disk afterward). After that point, the empire player was kind of stuck. He followed up on this with a dark majesty empowered Isabel and was able to kill off the knight panther from underneath the swordsman's attempted rescue with Isabellas mobile magic, the wolf impact, and a Gaze of Nagash. Most of the other undead hung back out of range until the black knights came in to impact both the units which had pinned the coach (both of which died during the melee phase. The undead went first again on turn 3 having lost only two wolves and having three enemy heavy hitters already pinned which gave isabell a chance to use her magic and then pin other disks (though in retrospect healing her wound she'd gotten from an empowered knights panther probably would have been better), the knight got pinned by some other unit (can't remember what) and the black knights were able to run someone else down while the black coach though wounded continued to hold down luther and the warrior priest. The problem was that although most of the empire died by the end of that round, they did manage to kill the knights, Isabell, and the Black Coach. That left the undead with a surprising lack of activation phase damage, amounting to Manfred a banshee, and Gaze of Nagash. Now if he'd been smarter and not had the banshee attack luther directly (or if he'd empowered it) that might have been enough but the banshee died giving Luther his wound and from that point on there wasn't enough APD to kill Luther before his shield came online and it saved him three turns in a row.

I suppose I should correct the point that it wouldn't have been a total board wipe by the end of turn 3. Volkmar was still alive but he was pinned and there may have been an extra swordsmen but if so it did't do anything. I remember just thinking that the game was over and being somewhat annoyed that the empire player insisted on playing it out.
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Asen Aleksandrov
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So this had nothing to do with the list but rather the Vampires won the only way they can win, by going first and pinning everything. I agree with your suggestion that any amount of ranged support would have changed the situation dramatically.

On a related note, I learned not to underestimate the Warrior Priests. There is nothing more annoying than complete resistance on a unit with toughness 5 and counter 5.
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Jonathan
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Everything counts in large amounts, but that list leads me to another issue I have with the undead. Zombie dragons are poor compared to the other faction's large monsters. Undead really needed a sun dragon to dish out damage outside of melee and instead they got a unit that may or may not even deal damage. Poison is a lot less relevant than damage most of the time for the undead.
 
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Jed Head
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It seems to me that all VC units are overpriced by a hair because of the reanimate madness. They can't have a bloodthrister-esque unit coming back round after round...it would be too crazy. As a result, their units all seem to be nerfed a bit.

It is a fine line to walk. Make them too strong, and the reanimation goes out of control, but make them too weak (stupid Vargheists) and then they don't get any work done. Though Vargheists can be a bit hilarious against dwarves who bring a lot of infantry, they are generally pretty lame.

Overall, I think FFG nearly has it. VC are not severely underpowered; they are just lacking something. Maybe a power unit that can't be reanimated?
 
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Asen Aleksandrov
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Jedhead wrote:
It seems to me that all VC units are overpriced by a hair because of the reanimate madness. They can't have a bloodthrister-esque unit coming back round after round...it would be too crazy. As a result, their units all seem to be nerfed a bit.

It is a fine line to walk. Make them too strong, and the reanimation goes out of control, but make them too weak (stupid Vargheists) and then they don't get any work done. Though Vargheists can be a bit hilarious against dwarves who bring a lot of infantry, they are generally pretty lame.

Yep.

Jedhead wrote:
Overall, I think FFG nearly has it. VC are not severely underpowered; they are just lacking something. Maybe a power unit that can't be reanimated?

Something is definitely missing. A lot of times I find myself lamenting the lack of tough basic infantry, or just any competent 4-5p unit so I don't have to plug every hole with Skeletons.

This puts me in the mood for a poll. I'll go post it right now.

 
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Benjamin Bottorff
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I don't really know enough Warhammer Lore to vote on your poll but I can comment on my observations for the vampire counts. Their strengths are all really good but their weaknesses are all really bad. I will say, that I feel that a pure vampire count army is much better for three regiments than two but even then they have problems. I think the logistics end of my post could be viewed as an extended explanation of why vampires are better with three regiments. After elaborating I'll comment on some possible solutions.

I think vampires problems can be sorted in to two kinds, logistical and roles.

I think there are two rolls that the undead have trouble with; cost efficient killers and units that stick on the field.
-They do have units which fill them but there are problems and it has to be this way to some extent with reanimate. The whole point of the coach is as near as I can tell is that it has the capability to stick around an extra turn and hold stuff down. But somehow, it suffers from general vampire count pricing despite not being reanimateable. Added into the cost is that they don't even fight at full strength without an empowerment. The dragon and the black knights can also use fear to have some ability to do this but the dragon is also very expensive (and not as fast so it's harder to get good pins) and the black knights can't survive a counter attack. The Varghiest look like they were designed to be this but they can't actually pin anything impressive without dyeing so their ability to stand on the field is less useful (even if your enemy somehow doesn't have something that can kill them).
-On the damaging end of things, the vampires do have banshees, (unreliable except in packs but in packs vulnerable to magic/magic resistance), grave guards (only against small disks), black knights (cost inefficient). Even undead heroes don't provide an exceptional amount of damage with Isabella being in the lead at an amazing 5 damage plus 2 magic mobile. Franz has more mass damage potential with 5 damage and 2 impact. Skeletons and wolves actually do fair damage for their cost (if they survive melee phase) but they still have to team up to take things down which is a major disadvantage relative to diskwars general 1to1 ratio for basic infantry. Another problem is that very little of their damage is activation phase damage. As so much of their tactics is reliant on pinning enemies down enemy activation phase damage that frees enemy disks is brutal and you don't have your own activation phase damage to deal with it.

On the logistical end, although the vampires have many powerful tools, it's hard to get them all together and doing what they're supposed to. The vampire heroes by and large don't come with a lot of recruitment points to make of for their disks inefficiency (and taking Mannfred is a little painful for this reason).
Undead run into three major logistical issues which feed into each other:
> Army size/value
> Command Card Competition
> Using Reanimate/Dependency on going first
Army size/value
Vampire count disks are cost inefficient to make up for how powerful reanimate is, and vampire heroes by and large don't come with a lot of recruitment points to make of for their disks inefficiency (and taking Mannfred is a little painful for this reason).
-Now Manfred himself doesn't present a huge presence with his 5,4,5 Mage 3 stats (even with the extra wound) so if you get him you're likely either investing in the ability to reanimate zombie dragons or you want to be able to bring back black knights/Varghiest without having to use up you steady card slot. The problem is that if you take this loss to your overall forces you can either use him to reanimate in which case he has even less presence on the field as himself (and although his ability to take an extra wound helps him tank longer if he's getting pinned he's probably being nullified anyway) and if you use him to go smashing things then it'll be much harder to be using him for that reanimate ability you invested into (re: dependency on going first). Kremmler has the same problem. He doesn't have a huge presence on the field. You're paying for a powerful form of the reanimate ability which you're also paying for with the cost of the minions you reanimate. Isabel is nice because she doesn't have this issue, she's potent as herself with the flexibility to gain reanimate or go on the offense. However, I'd say her low hp combined with her abilities feeds into either the need to invest in command cards or the dependency on going first). The Necromancers are also similar, having small presence on the field in exchange for the ability to reanimate more.
-In net: Vampire armies tend to be smaller overall, their heroes tend not to have as much presence by themselves. This gives the vampires relatively little power to set the course of the game. It is also more painful for vampires to forgo points for an advantage in gaining initiative due to their forces already being diminished.

Command Card Competition
Now in any army you have to juggle priorities but the vampire counts have so many priorities and get pulled in so many directions it's ridicules). Let's look at some of the points:
-Reanimate eats up activations. This probably isn't an issue in the sense that you won't have enough activations to use up all your units but what it does mean is that if you want to reanimate and use your free unit to pin something you won't have many activations left to work with especially if your hand is full of two activation cards. 4 Activation cards allow you to reanimate up to two disks and use them to pin enemies or use kremmler and get his skeletons out all in one go. In general I like having two activation cards but I think that they aren't as good for undead.
-Empowerment is very flexible and provides the extra punch to kill things that undead lack without help and survivability. Also practical requisite if you're going to get black coaches to do anything.
-You must protect your casters from things that can jump on them. So intimidate and dark majesty are very useful. Without dark majesty it's really hard to use Isabella offensively because she can be crushed by an enemy counter attack and defensive damage and die without having a chance to heal herself. Intimidate is more flexible but doesn't work on heroes.
-You have many slow disks, or disks that would benefit from being able to suicide charge from further away so that when they die and you reanimate them so eager troops is nice.
-Alternatively to stopping them from jumping on your casters you can try to stun or pin your enemies with Gaze of Nagash or Raise dead (also stops them from jumping on your other units. Both of these also provide a bit of extra damage.
-If you want Isabel to charge without being so vulnerable to going first it's nice to be able to not take as much defensive damage so proven champion or beguile.
-And of course, you're also really lacking and would really benefit from activation phase damage like Arcane Attack, just to help finish off things weakened by knights, coaches, banshees or Isabella's magic.
-Last but not least, that zombie dragon is a lot scarier if you can bring it back, or alternatively you might want to be able to get your black knights back without having to bring Manfred, or maybe you want isabella to be able to reanimate while charging instead of using magic and so the Invocation is a powerful temptation.

The steady slot already has a ton of things going on for any faction but if you count all the ones I listed as being especially desirable for undead it's ridicules. The undead cards are especially powerful and hold many of the keys to overcoming vampire weaknesses but there's two problems: You can only have four cards total and you can only play one card at a time. The dependency on your cards can also feed into making the whole, needs to go first thing, worse. It's impossible to cover all of your weaknesses at once and after the fighting starts you frequently won't get to play all of your cards.
>In total, it's hard for vampires to have and play the cards they need without forgoing many of their factions possible strengths, especially in 2 regiment games.

Using Reanimate/Need go go first
Here's the meat of the point. The other two things could be quite forgivable if reanimate is sufficiently powerful and no mistake, it is extremely powerful. However, there are some problems with using it.
>You cannot use it until you've lost some forces [and it isn't worth losing forces just so that you can use it unless you can kill something but you don't have a ton of presence so your troops will have some trouble killing things].
>Normally you cannot use it if you're pinned.
>You generally don't lose disks until your enemy has gotten close enough to start pinning your casters. You can have your heroes and casters all hang back while the other units run forward and try to wear the enemy down but they will be horrendously outmatched as they're cost inefficient to being with and they'll be missing the support of your heroes and any points you spent on necromancers. Given that you'll likely be crushed and if you're facing a sufficiently mobile enemy (which is a lot of them these days and that's even ignoring things like flankers) your casters might still be in their range even if the fight happened just on their side of the field.
> In general the undead don't have a lot of things for controlling space without sending their units forward or to support forward units without sending more units forward. This works fine with reanimate but it does make it hard to prevent the enemy from getting close without pitting your (likely outmatched) army directly against your enemy and hoping to tie them up/do enough damage for it to be worthwhile.

Now there are things you can do to help tie your enemy up and give your reanimates time to create value but these run into the other issues (a lot of the ones I've seen run successfully rely on Isabella) and the whole thing feeds into the big problem of becoming so reliant on going first.

Any army when in close quarters with another one derives a strong advantage going first but the effect is amplified against undead. I'd put the main advantages into a couple broad statements: by and large most disks do better when they're attacking (higher average attack+impact) than defending (especially when they get to choose which target to attack, attacking stops powerful enemy threats from attacking back or using abilities/ranged attacks, and it eats up enemy activations giving you more opportunity to get final strike. However, with undead it becomes even greater because if they're relying on reanimated reinforcements, each caster you pin is like removing multiple enemies threats, furthermore the undead tend to lack activation phase damage to free their casters [the heroes/necromancers can use magic to reliably do so but that eats into their reanimations as well]. Reanimating disks is also a slow way to start a round activation wise but it's necessary to do it first unless you can prevent your enemy from shutting it down for good. Combine this with fragile disks (and Isabell) who are reliant on getting on top and staying alive with fear/regeneration/card effects and you have an undead army that can get shut down so hard in an instant while other armies are much less vulnerable. There are a number of card effects that can make this situation less grim however in an irony, they are about as dependent on going first as everything else (except intimidate which has it's own weaknesses).
> Reanimate can create great value but it's nature also makes it very hard to use without generating a massive vulnerability to going first. Unless you've loaded up insanely heavy in reanimators (which I wouldn't advise) it isn't enough to make up for losing your entire army generally.

Now in a three player game, undead have a somewhat less grim time. Their army is still going to be smaller/weaker but they can have more flexibility in their cards and they have enough pieces that it's more likely that they'll still have standing forces once the reanimates start kicking in. They can get more out of their heroes specialties without the cost biting as much.

Even then though, it's hard.

So what I think could help out.
Hard to say without changing what already is (though a "what balancing changes would you make to the game" thread might be an interesting discussion.

I think one thing which might help would be a card which lets one vampire count caster gain stalwart (maybe make it devious as an alternative to dark majesty). The problem is that adding command cards creates even more competition and I think that would force every undead list to be highly specialized/focused as opposed to being able to do everything that undead can do. Another card that might help could be maybe something like a 3 activation card that allows you to activate up to 2 extra vampire count units (this making hordes of cheaper disks more viable). Maybe a card which allows them to sacrifice a disk to remove a wound from a nearby caster making wading into combat with heroes more viable and allowing undead to free up doomed disks to be reanimated.

As for units, I think maybe some kind of defense oriented unit would help round the vampires out some. Tough enough to hold down an enemy he pins but annoying to attack even if he's pinning something (think militia spearmen except done differently). Maybe something like a 2,2,5 with poison and swift counter costing 6ish (ideal for blocking and softening enemies for the next turn. Or maybe a disk that is kind of an inverse Varghiest, enemies within short range to move cannot activate to move unless they end pinning the disk. Another thing which might be good is some very dangerous nonreanimatable. The Coach can hold things down with fear and survive a counter attack but the vampires don't have a disk they can rely on to kill things other than the dragon and to a lesser extent the black knights. Another thing that might be interesting/work with them is a caster unit with mage 3 but no reanimate (can still be used to trigger cards)

I think that maybe undead would benefit from having a leader that gives an extra command card a bit more than other faction and it would also be cool thematically.

Just some thoughts.

EDIT: One autocorrection mentioned in the next post fixed also a new idea.
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Asen Aleksandrov
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Velensk wrote:
... but they can't actually pin anything impressive without dieting

How sexist of you to imply such a thing!

Great, insightful post. Your observations are correct, but things aren't quite as hopeless. The Vampire disks have a few minor advantages in the command phase.

First off, keeping enemy disks off of your reanimators isn't that hard. Access to both Intimidate and Dark Majesty helps. Then there is the simple fact that due to the nature of reanimating, your heroes tend to hang back, and there are enough medium and large disks with which to screen them. As long as you advance in waves and don't bunch up your forces, the opposing army will find it very uncomfortable to run for your heroes without getting horribly counter-pinned.
Most of my opponents in the past have preferred to pin the Zombie Dragon which I lead with, or basically anything else I lead with. I generally activate my heroes last, when there is no way for them to be pinned even if they move up, and position them in a way that keeps them shielded by terrain or my own units at beginning of the next round. I find that the other armies have a shortage of flying or relentless units with which to reliably pin a hero, and against the few exceptions (Azhag, Sun Dragons) there is always Dark Majesty.

On the other hand, Vampires have flying units in spades, and they're the same medium and large disks I alluded to above. They also move quickly and like to pin stuff to use their abilities. It's very easy for a Vargheist to swoop in an cover 2-3 disks, and whatever minor damage it inflicts I can make stick with the Dragons.
A strictly meta advantage the VC have in terms of pinning is that the type of army they fear (a ranged/siege-heavy one) will not have as many units to block them with in the middle. I often meet the enemy vanguard with Dragons and Skeletons (which come back every round, holding the line indefinitely) and have my Vargheists and Black Knights run past to kill archers and war machines.
Now, a dedicated melee army is always a pain to deal with. Most of my losses are against Empire and Chaos armies with exactly the units you're thinking of. It's relatively easy to pin multiple key enemies and spread the fear around; things get complicated afterward, when you have to actually kill stuff. Everything you fail to finish off will come to haunt you as the rest of your opponent's army rescues them with activation damage in the following round. And after you lose your elite units and you can no longer screen your heroes, things get bad. Skeletons can't do anything, and you gotta hope your opponent doesn't have their heroes within pinning range at the beginning of each round so you can lead with Intimidate.

As for cards, it's pretty bad. Oftentimes I almost want the round to end quicker because even if my opponent has no units to activate, their cards hurt more than mine. The round rarely ends before at least 2 cards have been played, however, and while for me it's always a tense dilemma between which card to play to survive, for my opponent it's generally a buffet of equally comfortable choices.

It's not all bleak and hopeless, though. When you use the terrain and your movement well, and don't mess up your card timings too much, you can win decisively. Your army will invariably be smaller, as Velensk pointed out, so you won't be giving up too many victory points, and unless you get the deployment zone objective, your heroes will be hard to reach and therefore will likely survive to the end. If you do get that objective, I recommend you try to actually reach it with your heroes because you will not get a wipeout win no matter how hard you dedicate yourself to the task.

*

So, Vampire units have poor stats for their cost, you have to reanimate them to get par performance, therefore the way to win is to figure out how to get the most out of reanimating. I will attempt to break down every undead unit and reanimation-related card with an emphasis on their usefulness, at least as much as I can determine from my personal experience. A lot of shinfo for those of you who already play VC, but hopefully it makes it easier for new players.

Skeletons
If you're running Kemmler take 3, otherwise avoid them. While in theory they have adequate stats for their cost and synergize well with fear, they tend to fall behind your fear-inducing units, and even if they're present you need every single one of your disks to be on top. Plus they are the easiest kill point in the game.

Dire Wolves vs Tomb Banshees
Unless you can't afford to, take Banshees. The Wolves' speed is irrelevant from a reanimating standpoint, and they are easier to kill. The Banshees, on the other hand, will often do more activation damage and require strength/counter 5+ to kill in the melee phase.

Vargheists vs Black Knights
Black Knights will instantly do just with their impact all the damage the Vargheists can hope for if they make it to the melee phase. They also inflict fear. There are only a couple of situations in which you would want to reanimate Vargheists instead- either you're facing a tight cluster of toughness 3 units which you can't fully pin without flying into position, or fortified terrain. Conversely, defensive terrain screws with your Vargheists far more than it does with the BK. In my opinion the Knights are the more consistently efficient reanimation option.

Zombie Dragons
Against enemy monsters, Tanks and certain heroes, your only true response is the Zombie Dragon. Even when it doesn't inflict damage with the breath attack, the poison allows you to basically destroy anything in 2 rounds. You can argue that the cheaper Black Knights do more reliable straight-up damage and can take down stuff like Knights Panther on their own, unlike the ZD. The problem with them is that more often than not they die before they manage to hit in the melee phase, and because of their low counter your opponent will not hesitate to engage them the way they would against a Dragon.
The ZD are just good in general. Their massive fear imprint allows the rest of your pathetic army to survive a little longer or counter swift enemies, and their ability to fly into position and pin 2-4 enemy disks immediately after being brought back on the map is positively disgusting.

Aspiring Necromancers
Given that they cost 7pts, you need them to reanimate a unit of Banshees or GG at least twice through the course of the game. If your opponent doesn't have siege units, you can screen them the same way you do for your heroes and get good efficiency out of them; you can even dedicate Invocation to them in order to get some Black Knights out. Point is, don't use them for Skeletons, and keep them safe at all costs, even if it means taking the time to hide them in cover terrain or better yet a cave. Honestly, they will probably get killed fast, so try to use them for GG or medium disks, otherwise they're not worth it.

Raise Dead and Grave Guard
Basically the best small disk to use with Raise Dead, or with Invocation on Isabella. Conversely, the Wolves and Banshees are wasted on RD because they won't be benefiting from their activation damage. Kemmler is better with his natural x3 Skeleton reanimate, so don't use him for GG unless you're trying to force the round to end and you can get the job done with just the Guard. Raise Dead can also be used to bring Vargheists back, if the situation calls for it.
edit: my rant from the ffg message board:
Raise Dead is not reanimating, it's basically a short range spell. It's not good for reanimating Banshees, Wolves or Black Knights because they lose out on their activation damage, so what you're left with is either damage 3 to multiple disks with Vargheists, or damage 4-5 to a single disk with GG. RD being slow, you essentially invite your opponent to pin you with something you can't kill with either of those disks (assuming you have the right one currently in your casualty pile). They could also pin you with a weak expendable unit to keep you from moving and dropping your Raised Dead on a better target. Either way, you're letting your opponent dictate the exchange. The importance of not letting your casters to ever get pinned has been stressed enough.
Raise Dead deprives you of one of the best things about reanimating- the ability to move your freshly exhumed unit into a good blocking position, or to pin a cluster of good targets with it.

Invocation of Nehek
Invocation is sort of unavoidable. On one hand, the advantage of suddenly dropping a Zombie Dragon on the board is undeniable. Not only is it the best melee phase damage dealer in your roster, but it covers a massive area, inflicts fear and gets to poison, which is a solid way of wearing down resistant units.
Alternatively Invocation allows you to reanimate 2 Black Knights if you have Mannfred and a Necromancer or Kemmler- a solid choice if you're confident they won't die before they hit in the melee phase. There is a logistical issue with this plan, however: if you take Mannfred and 2 Black Knights, you won't be able to take 2 Dragons, which is damn near suicide in the current meta, imo.

Kemmler vs Isabella
No right answer here. Isabella can obviously pin something and use Invocation to bring GG for a total of 9-10 strength, or Banshees for a potential massive splash damage. Kemmler instead brings 3 Skeletons for a total of 9 strength (assuming they can all engage), and with much shorter reach because he needs to remain stationary for it. He also has worse combat stats.
But if you're using Isabella like this, you won't be able to bring back a Dragon. Furthermore, while capable of healing herself, she is softer than Kemmler and relies even more on support to survive- without fear or Beguile she would quickly fall. Kemmler is his own support- if he is surrounded and he activates first, he can instantly secure a large area; if he doesn't activate first he is still in a better position Isabella would be because of his toughness 5. Kemmler's extra recruitment point is another advantage.
Needless to say, you will be building drastically different lists around each hero.

Mannfred
Mannfred has natural reanimate 2, which makes him key in squeezing cost efficiency out of the VC. It kind of seems like you can't play without him. His options are covered above.
His 2 wounds are his best quality. Oftentimes it's best to run him forward early on and pin a strong enemy disk, even if you can't kill it. That way you get to deprive your opponent of one of their assets for a minimum of 2 rounds (or indefinitely if they have low counter), while Mannfred remains stationary and spawns undead disks around himself continuously, until it's time to move on.


I don't think there is a perfect reanimating setup, but there are some definite fundamentals to be aware of.
> 1. Flexibility is key. You want to have a variety of disks fitting within the constraints of your reanimators, because different situations will arise through the course of each game. While the Zombie Dragon might seem like it's always the best choice, sometimes you won't be able to get to Invocation, or will have Mannfred pinned by a hero, and sometimes you'd want a swell of lesser units to split up and pin different enemies.
> 2. Whenever possible, stagger the reanimation so your freshly revived units don't get re-murdered by activation damage.
> 3. You generally don't want to mindlessly sacrifice disks just because you can bring them back. However there are situations in which you'd actually benefit from sending a unit to its death specifically so you can use it again in the same round or in a different part of the map. For example, if your opponent stacks a lot of their disks in their deployment zone, you can use your BK's movement to kill one of your Dire Wolves or Banshees, then move forward with Isabella, reanimate them and instantly run them in to pin or burn the stack: you just got off a siege shot without a siege unit. I suppose this isn't really "fundamental", but whatever.
> 4. Don't reanimate just to reanimate. In the early stages of the game it's more important to reach key locations with your heroes. Sometimes it helps to just kill something with magic and end the round sooner; alternatively, if you really want to play one more card, you can always force it by using your last activation in a round to reanimate some disks.
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Asen Aleksandrov
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Velensk wrote:
Maybe something like a 2,2,5 with poison and swift counter costing 6ish (ideal for blocking and softening enemies for the next turn. Or maybe a disk that is kind of an inverse Varghiest, enemies within short range to move cannot activate to move unless they end pinning the disk.


Both very good ideas. The first thing is basically Ghouls, so I seriously hope it happens, and the second can be a command card that places a token on one of your units you want to taunt with.
 
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Jed Head
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I think VC would also benefit from a hero with more than two for a command value--the extra cards would allow you to stack your hand a bit more with those all-important VC uniques.

In one of the previews they left heroes with more than two command value open as a possibility, and I think VC would be first in line as far as needing that bonus.
 
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