Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
51 Posts
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 

Shadows of Brimstone: City of the Ancients» Forums » Rules

Subject: Bandito tornado rules questions rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Kairqa Mordenkain
msg tools
At level 3, I'm playing with a Bandito friend who has become more or less an unstoppable killing machine. I feel like we must be doing something wrong. If not, it seems like he's won the game. While I expected that to happen at some point, it seems to have happened too fast. Here are abilities and questions related to:

He has:

Swindler (+1 combat, Can redraw all loot cards)
Combat 3 (base 2 +1 for Swindler)
Initiative 4 (level up roll)
Regain grit on: Roll of 1/2, roll of 5/6 after each kill
Max Grit 5 (2 +1 artifact, +1 skill, +1 rolling doubles after KO)


Swinging Fists (1 Grit: Sacrifice melee attack (3) to make a 3 combat attack against every adjacent target)

The Judge (d8 to hit, 3 shots gun, crits on 6,7,8)

Cavalry Sabre (can make a ranged and melee attack)

Some Artifact: Spend 1 dark stone: Armor 4+ for the fight

Some belt buckle: Gain 1 health or sanity on kill


Combat looks like this:

4 enemies adjacent. 4 at range.
He spends 1 grit.
Rolls 15 attacks (4 blocks of 3 dice each for "swinging fists", 3 more for the judge).
Spends 1 grit, rerolls anything that missed (~8 dice)
Rolls ~10-12 damage dice (with the option to spend 1 grit to re-roll any that are sub-par)
Uses the melee rolls to kill everything adjacent. (there is always at least 1 crit in each group)
Uses the gun to kill 2-3 more things that are at range as there are no longer adjacent targets. (these are also crits)
Rolls for 6 kills to regain ~2 grit
Heals 6 health/sanity

So, he kills almost everything, heals to full, takes almost no damage if any and can do this every turn.

Are there any steps of this that are being misinterpreted?
Specifically:
1) Is swinging fists being done right? This ability seems absurdly powerful, more so being a tier 1 skill. Even naked this decimates everything adjacent.
2) Should the range and melee attacks be rolled together thus subject to being able to use a single grit to re-roll tons of dice
3) Are you able to range attack a target with creatures starting the turn adjacent to you (he's killing them off before he resolves his range attack rolls)
4) (unrelated) Should artifacts be re-added to the artifact deck at some point if someone has them or are they intended to be unique items.

The only "challenge" we have at this point is whether or not we get screwed by darkness rolls.

Any insights would be helpful.




1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryan K
United States
Canton
Michigan
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I believe you can only attack melee or range, not both. Don't have the rule book on me though...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kairqa Mordenkain
msg tools
ZombieDad2 wrote:
I believe you can only attack melee or range, not both. Don't have the rule book on me though...

Cavalry Saber negates that.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike
United States
Olathe
Kansas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yes, Cavalry Sabre is sweet. My Marshall character has that and The Judge just like your Bandito. I don't have all the crazy combos, but those two weapons alone are very powerful. He can usually take a few monsters each round.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adria D
Canada
Victoria
British Columbia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Kairqa wrote:
Specifically:
1) Is swinging fists being done right? This ability seems absurdly powerful, more so being a tier 1 skill. Even naked this decimates everything adjacent.
2) Should the range and melee attacks be rolled together thus subject to being able to use a single grit to re-roll tons of dice
3) Are you able to range attack a target with creatures starting the turn adjacent to you (he's killing them off before he resolves his range attack rolls)
4) (unrelated) Should artifacts be re-added to the artifact deck at some point if someone has them or are they intended to be unique items.

1. Swinging fists hits every model adjacent to you. So if another hero is adjacent to him, they should be getting hit. This is clarified in the FAQ at the end of the adventure book.

2. I'm not sure, I don't have time to check the wording on the card now. We've always rolled the melee and ranged attacks for that separately.

3. He gets to choose the order he assigns his hits. If he can roll all his dice at the same time, then as long as he's killed everything adjacent, he can target whatever he wants (within range) with his Judge.

4. We re-add the artifacts to the decks after each adventure. We have too many posses on the go to not do that.


My Bandido (level 4) is pretty powerful, but I've made him melee only. And everyone's pretty powerful at that point, but we've started making a point of trying to keep everyone close in XP and level. We had a problem Gunslinger who would wipe out a room before anyone else got to activate.

Mongo is a Swindlin' Brawlin Bandido who rolls 6 combat dice (10 with Rage), with each hit doing d8 damage. He has a Teleportation Bracelet that lets him just jump in next to the big baddie and beat that up while the shooters pick off the little stuff. He visits the Church every town visit for Spirit Armor, and the doc for Void Vapor Injections (starts adventures with 5 grit), after dealing with his mutations (mutates on 3 corruption points). He's up to 20 health and 20 sanity, and has a Serpent Skin Helmet for regular armor. Play enough adventures with the same heroes and powerful combinations happen.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Angelus Seniores
Belgium
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
i do believe same as adria that for the melee hits vs adjacent models, these need to be rolled seperately per model, so if he uses grit, it would be less useful.
the reason is that the way its worded these are seperate attacks ie its nit a single 12 dice combat attack, and you would certainly need to differentiate which dice are vs which model, some might escape while others are overkilled.
also shooting with the pistol is certainly a seperate attack as that is ranged.
he may still be killing a lot but his grit might run out faster this way.

i also think that with the gear and artifacts its a luck of the draw to get the powerful weapons early on which can unbalance things fast.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Heath Satterly
msg tools
Swinging fists is an ability and replaces the ability of Cavalry sword.

The wording indicates this. Sacrifice Melee attack to make a combat attack against every single adjacent target, friend or foe.

Cavalry Sabre allows you to combine a melee and ranged attack. Swinging fists is not a melee attack, as you sacrificed it to use your ability.

If you are holding items that give +1 combat, they do not add to the rolls he makes on targets when using Swinging Punches, but he will get anything that deals + damage for those hits, and get re-rolls. The + Damage and re-rolls all depend on wording as well.

Also, he needs to spend a grit for re-rolls for each set of 3 attacks. He gets 3 attacks per enemy, You need to resolve each enemy before moving to the next. Killing 1 with a single punch does not let you punch something else 2 more times. It is specifically 3 combat against Each enemy.

he doesnt get to roll all his dice and then deal out hits as he sees fit, he only gets 3 attacks per target, and only those 3 are gritable.

The loose interpretation of the rules allows him to be far more powerful than he should be.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adria D
Canada
Victoria
British Columbia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dread_moose wrote:
Swinging fists is an ability and replaces the ability of Cavalry sword.

The wording indicates this. Sacrifice Melee attack to make a combat attack against every single adjacent target, friend of foe.

Cavalry Sabre allows you to combine a melee and ranged attack. Swinging fists is not a melee attack, as you sacrificed it to use your ability.

If you are holding items that give +1 combat, they do not add to the rolls he makes on targets when using Swinging Punches, but he will get anything that deals + damage for those hits, and get re-rolls. The + Damage and re-rolls all depend on wording as well.

Also, he needs to spend a grit for re-rolls for each set of 3 attacks. He gets 3 attacks per enemy, You need to resolve each enemy before moving to the next. Killing 1 with a single punch does not let you punch something else 2 more times. It is specifically 3 combat against Each enemy.

he doesnt get to roll all his dice and then deal out hits as he sees fit, he only gets 3 attacks per target, and only those 3 are gritable.

The loose interpretation of the rules allows him to be far more powerful than he should be.
+1 to all of this. I was on my way out the door when I wrote up my earlier post, and was thinking this while I was out.

Swingin' Fists takes the place of his melee attack. HI don't think he can pair it with the Cavalry Sabre. It's a separate, special attack.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Canning
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
Stand By, Ready
badge
Wolkenritter
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Kairqa wrote:

Rolls 15 attacks (4 blocks of 3 dice each for "swinging fists", 3 more for the judge).

I think this is wrong.

First theSwinging fists which I think is roll three dice and apply the result to all the adjacent figures including other Heroes, I.e if you roll a 5 and two 6s you do one normal and two critical hits to each adjacent figure [And your friends aren't going to appreciate not getting defense.]

Then if Adria is wrong you roll a separate Ranged Attack with the Judge.

Though the Judge is one of the two best pistols in the game (The Trusty Pistol is probably the other) and the Banditos is one of the worst characters in the game to be carrying it (Range of 5+).

Adria wrote:
Swingin' Fists takes the place of his melee attack. HI don't think he can pair it with the Cavalry Sabre. It's a separate, special attack.

I'd want to check the exact wording but I think you may be right on this.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joel Flamme
United States
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
Kairqa wrote:
At level 3, I'm playing with a Bandito friend who has become more or less an unstoppable killing machine. I feel like we must be doing something wrong. If not, it seems like he's won the game. While I expected that to happen at some point, it seems to have happened too fast. Here are abilities and questions related to:

He has:

Swindler (+1 combat, Can redraw all loot cards)
Combat 3 (base 2 +1 for Swindler)
Initiative 4 (level up roll)
Regain grit on: Roll of 1/2, roll of 5/6 after each kill
Max Grit 5 (2 +1 artifact, +1 skill, +1 rolling doubles after KO)


Swinging Fists (1 Grit: Sacrifice melee attack (3) to make a 3 combat attack against every adjacent target)

The Judge (d8 to hit, 3 shots gun, crits on 6,7,8)

Cavalry Sabre (can make a ranged and melee attack)

Some Artifact: Spend 1 dark stone: Armor 4+ for the fight

Some belt buckle: Gain 1 health or sanity on kill


Combat looks like this:

4 enemies adjacent. 4 at range.
He spends 1 grit.
Rolls 15 attacks (4 blocks of 3 dice each for "swinging fists", 3 more for the judge).
Spends 1 grit, rerolls anything that missed (~8 dice)
Rolls ~10-12 damage dice (with the option to spend 1 grit to re-roll any that are sub-par)
Uses the melee rolls to kill everything adjacent. (there is always at least 1 crit in each group)
Uses the gun to kill 2-3 more things that are at range as there are no longer adjacent targets. (these are also crits)
Rolls for 6 kills to regain ~2 grit
Heals 6 health/sanity

So, he kills almost everything, heals to full, takes almost no damage if any and can do this every turn.

Are there any steps of this that are being misinterpreted?
Specifically:
1) Is swinging fists being done right? This ability seems absurdly powerful, more so being a tier 1 skill. Even naked this decimates everything adjacent.
2) Should the range and melee attacks be rolled together thus subject to being able to use a single grit to re-roll tons of dice
3) Are you able to range attack a target with creatures starting the turn adjacent to you (he's killing them off before he resolves his range attack rolls)
4) (unrelated) Should artifacts be re-added to the artifact deck at some point if someone has them or are they intended to be unique items.

He thinks I'm just jealous...I'm feeling like "well....you won the game. What game do you want to play now?" Admittedly its disheartening to roll 3 dice a turn to his 15. I'm certainly effective in my own right, but I have limits. The only "challenge" is whether or not we get screwed by darkness rolls.

Any insights would be helpful.

So the biggest mistake I see is the way you're using grit to re-roll dice. Here's a brief rundown to clarify how the fight should go:

When you make an attack, you can (normally) only make a melee attack or a ranged attack. The Calvary sabre lets you do both.

First, lets do the melee attack. If you did a normal attack, you would roll 5 dice. Swinging fists lets you replace that attack with 3 dice against each adjacent model, which you probably want to do with 4 adjacent enemies. These attacks are rolled separately, so spending one grit would only let you re-roll misses from one set of three dice. The same goes for the damage dice.

Now lets look at the ranged attack. You have three shots, so you would roll three dice. Before rolling damage, you need to assign hits. You can either assign them one at a time as you go, or all at once. The important thing to note is that when you spend a grit, you only re-roll dice that 'you just rolled'. If you're assigning hits as you go, you're only rolling one die at a time, so one grit is only going to let you re-roll one die. If you assign them all at once, you get the benefit of re-rolling multiple damage dice with one grit, but any extra wounds are wasted.

Also, the Silver Buckle (belt that lets you heal a wound or sanity for each kill) is keyword Law or Showman only. Has your friend gained one of those keywords somewhere?
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adria D
Canada
Victoria
British Columbia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
dahak wrote:
First theSwinging fists which I think is roll three dice and apply the result to all the adjacent figures including other Heroes, I.e if you roll a 5 and two 6s you do one normal and two critical hits to each adjacent figure [And your friends aren't going to appreciate not getting defense.]
Swingin' Fists lets you make a melee attack against each adjacent model - that's a separate attack and roll against each model.

(confirmed by Joel while I was typing )



I had to get up to refill my coffee, so I grabbed the CotA book and the Outpost card.

With the Cavalry Sabre, you get to make a ranged attack "as well as" a melee attack. To me, that sounds like two separate attacks. We've always had the attacks rolled separately.

The Bandido's Swingin' Fists is a special melee attack used in place of a "normal melee attack".

From Joel's post, it sounds like Swingin' Fists can be combined with the Cavalry Sabre, but each attack has to be rolled separately. So each 3-combat melee attack has to be rolled one target at a time, and then the ranged attack can be rolled. Grit can be spent on a single attack roll, not the whole set of rolls at once.

(You could probably roll the ranged attack first, but that would silly given that you have to target adjacent models first. )
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joel Flamme
United States
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
Adria wrote:
(You could probably roll the ranged attack first, but that would silly given that you have to target adjacent models first. )

Yup, correct on both points.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Heath Satterly
msg tools
is the word sacrifice used improperly for swinging fists then?

As you say, the cavalry sword lets you do both attacks. Swinging firsts says sacrifice your melee attack. IE give up your melee attack in order hit everything around you?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Julien Le Jeune
Belgium
Namur
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dread_moose wrote:
is the word sacrifice used improperly for swinging fists then?

As you say, the cavalry sword lets you do both attacks. Swinging firsts says sacrifice your melee attack. IE give up your melee attack in order hit everything around you?

This would be my interpretation as well.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adria D
Canada
Victoria
British Columbia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dread_moose wrote:
is the word sacrifice used improperly for swinging fists then?

As you say, the cavalry sword lets you do both attacks. Swinging firsts says sacrifice your melee attack. IE give up your melee attack in order hit everything around you?
You do sacrifice, or give up, your melee attack for Swingin' Fists. You get one or the other: a regular melee attack, or the Swingin' Fists special melee attack.

The Cavalry Sabre does not let you do a regular melee attack and Swingin' Fists. It lets you do a melee attack and a ranged attack. So you can do a regular melee attack + ranged attack, or Swingin' Fists + ranged attack.

But remember that the Swingin' Fists hits every model, so don't stand too close to him.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Heath Satterly
msg tools
By that logic, you can use swinging fists and a 2 handed weapon as well,

Or dual wield pistols and get off a swinging fists as well.

In All cases, you have given up the melee attack. It also means you don't need the cavalry sword either. As the all the cavalry sword lets you do is melee and range as a combined attack, which swinging fists sacrificed the melee attack.

The only thing you cannot do is melee combat attack and use swinging fists in the same round.

He shouldn't even be using a cavalry sword, he is actually hurting himself. The cavalry sword does nothing when it comes to swinging fists if you follow the wording.


I'm not sure that he should be getting his ranged attacks in the same turn as swinging fists. The cavalry sword worded how it is, has no effect on swinging fists.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adria D
Canada
Victoria
British Columbia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Nope.

On any given activation, you can make a melee attack or a ranged attack. Not both, unless you wield the Cavalry Sabre.

If you choose to make a melee attack, you can give up that melee attack to use Swingin' Fists. But because you've already chosen melee, you cannot also perform a ranged attack.

If you choose to make a ranged attack, you have no melee attack to give up to use Swingin' Fists.

The only time you can get Swingin' Fists and a ranged attack is with the Cavalry Sabre.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Heath Satterly
msg tools
That is the point I am trying to clarify.

Swinging fists is not a melee attack. It is an ability that has the requirement of sacrificing your melee attack in order to use it.

Swinging fists as an ability does not say use 1 crit to make a 3 Combat Melee attack against every adjacent characters.


It says sacrifice your melee attack. As in you aren't taking a melee attack this turn in return for using this ability. Which should also mean that +combat modifiers do not apply.

Which means the Cavalry sword which lets you do both a Melee and Ranged attack in the same turn do nothing...................Because we sacrificed our chance to use our melee attack this turn.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dread_moose wrote:
Which means the Cavalry sword which lets you do both a Melee and Ranged attack in the same turn do nothing...................Because we sacrificed our chance to use our melee attack this turn.

While it's not entirely clear, I think most people would say that you can use the Cavalry Sword to give yourself both a melee attack and a ranged attack, and then you can use Swinging Fist to sacrifice the melee attack (which you do have) to gain an attack against every adjacent figure.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adria D
Canada
Victoria
British Columbia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The rulebook says "instead of". The word "sacrifice" could also be used, because you get one or another. But first you must specify that you are doing a melee attack in order to have a melee attack to give up.

The important thing is that you have to have a melee attack to give up (or sacrifice) to use Swingin' Fists.

It's perfectly valid to say "I'm going to use my Cavalry Sabre to make a melee attack followed by a ranged attack. For my melee attack, I'm going to use Swingin' Fists."

You could also say "I'm going to make a melee attack. But I'm going to give up (or sacrifice) that melee attack to use Swingin' Fists."

You could not say "I'm going to use Swingin' Fists." *resolve Swingin' Fists* "That replaced my melee attack, so I didn't make a melee attack, therefore I can make a ranged attack too."

You need to specify why type of attack(s) you are making first. Then you specify 'replacement' attacks or abilities.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joel Flamme
United States
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
Dread_moose wrote:
That is the point I am trying to clarify.

Swinging fists is not a melee attack. It is an ability that has the requirement of sacrificing your melee attack in order to use it.

Swinging fists as an ability does not say use 1 crit to make a 3 Combat Melee attack against every adjacent characters.


It says sacrifice your melee attack. As in you aren't taking a melee attack this turn in return for using this ability. Which should also mean that +combat modifiers do not apply.

Which means the Cavalry sword which lets you do both a Melee and Ranged attack in the same turn do nothing...................Because we sacrificed our chance to use our melee attack this turn.


I think the thing that's tripping you up is thinking that the Cavalry Sabre modifies a melee attack. It doesn't. The text says:

You may make a Melee Attack as well as a Ranged Attack during your activation.

It does not say:

When making a melee attack, you may also make a ranged attack.

Having a Cavalry Sabre equipped gives you both a melee and a ranged attack. Using Swingin' Fists lets you give up that melee attack to do a 3 combat melee attack against adjacent enemies. You don't have to give up your whole attack to activate it, only the melee attack. You still get your ranged attack.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jee Fu
United States
Iowa
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
What part of Swinging Fists says you can't use your +Combat items? If it says you're making a Combat Attack against every adjacent target, it seems like +Combat would certainly help that.

- Jee
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adria D
Canada
Victoria
British Columbia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Inspector Jee wrote:
What part of Swinging Fists says you can't use your +Combat items? If it says you're making a Combat Attack against every adjacent target, it seems like +Combat would certainly help that.

- Jee
I assumed you couldn't because it's a special attack that replaces your normal melee attack, and the normal melee attack is what you use your +Combat modifiers on. I might have to take a closer look on the wording in the books for that.

Any thoughts on that Joel?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ken H.
United States
Amherst
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Doesn't Swinging Fists specifically say to make a "combat 3" attack? It's not using your hero's innate combat, so I assume it wouldn't benefit from +combat items.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jee Fu
United States
Iowa
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Rubric wrote:
Doesn't Swinging Fists specifically say to make a "combat 3" attack? It's not using your hero's innate combat, so I assume it wouldn't benefit from +combat items.
If that's true, then yes. I just didn't have the card in front of me.

- Jee
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   |