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Shadows of Brimstone: City of the Ancients» Forums » Rules

Subject: Bandito tornado rules questions rss

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Adria D
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Inspector Jee wrote:
Rubric wrote:
Doesn't Swinging Fists specifically say to make a "combat 3" attack? It's not using your hero's innate combat, so I assume it wouldn't benefit from +combat items.
If that's true, then yes. I just didn't have the card in front of me.

- Jee
It's either "3 combat melee" or "combat 3 melee". I can't recall (and can't check at work ninja).

I view it the same way as a Raptor Claw free attack (or any free attack) - you get what the ability says, and that's it. As soon as you start using the ability, it's no longer a normal melee attack.
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Ken H.
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Adria wrote:
Inspector Jee wrote:
Rubric wrote:
Doesn't Swinging Fists specifically say to make a "combat 3" attack? It's not using your hero's innate combat, so I assume it wouldn't benefit from +combat items.
If that's true, then yes. I just didn't have the card in front of me.

- Jee
It's either "3 combat melee" or "combat 3 melee". I can't recall (and can't check at work ninja).

I view it the same way as a Raptor Claw free attack (or any free attack) - you get what the ability says, and that's it. As soon as you start using the ability, it's no longer a normal melee attack.

Specific wording: "...do a 3 combat melee attack...."
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Joel Flamme
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I'm also at work, so I can't check the card text either. My initial reaction though is that the intent is that the attack is considered a 'special attack' and doesn't benefit from gear. That's based more on common sense telling me that the ability would be incredibly overpowered more than anything else, though.

I should probably find out though since I'm playing a melee bandido in our current playtest campaign. I have the Swingin' Fists ability, but I haven't really been able to use it in the last few sessions. It's hard to get into a good position to use it when one of the other heroes is [redacted].
 
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David desJardins
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Another theory is that Swinging Fists lets you give up a melee attack to get a melee attack against each adjacent figure, so you can give up your 1 melee attack to get 4 melee attacks against 4 adjacent figures, and then you can give up each of those 4 melee attacks to get a total of 16 melee attacks, and then you can give up each of those 16 melee attacks to get a total of 64 melee attacks, ....
 
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Adria D
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Harlow Morgan wrote:
I'm also at work, so I can't check the card text either. My initial reaction though is that the intent is that the attack is considered a 'special attack' and doesn't benefit from gear. That's based more on common sense telling me that the ability would be incredibly overpowered more than anything else, though.
I agree that it would be pretty overpowered if gear was factored in.

My Bandido's starting ability gives him +1 combat, and his weapon gives him +3 combat and a d8 damage die. If he could use all that with Swingin' Fists, it would be pretty disgusting. He'd be limited by what he could reach, but his teleportation bracelet helps with that.

So I don't think melee combat bonuses should apply...especially when, further up the same upgrade path, you can spend 3 grit for 4 extra combat dice on one attack. So you could spend 1 grit to make a combat 7 attack against every adjacent model, or spend 3 grit to make a single combat 10 attack. Not much of a choice, is it?
 
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Rich Gray
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My take:

[1] All the items add to your heroes combat score.
[2] The heroes combat score is set to 3 ". . . do a 3 combat melee attack . . .."
[3] The hero rolls 3 dice for his combat score.
[4?] Every other score is the same (the hero can use items in hand for other bonuses, for example).
[4?] No other bonuses that affect combat are used.
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Angelus Seniores
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i wouldnt apply any bonuses for the simple reason that the ability title makes it clear he is using his fists only, no items so no bonuses from those items
 
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Jee Fu
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Angelsenior wrote:
i wouldnt apply any bonuses for the simple reason that the ability title makes it clear he is using his fists only, no items so no bonuses from those items
Depends on the item. The upgrades you get from the Blacksmith say they apply to Item they socket only, but the Rune cards in the gear deck that give you +1 damage can be attached to non-weapons. This heavily implies that the bonus you get from them is static across the board and NOT dependent on which item you're actually attacking with.

In this case, I would agree that yes - you cant get +combat or +dmg from things that are specific to your weapons (like Blacksmith upgrades), but you can totally get +dmg from a Gear Deck Upgrade in your boots, your hat, or even on a weapon you're equipping since those upgrades apply to your attacks even if you're not using that specific item to make an attack.

I mean, really, we just need explicit rules for what kinds of buffs can be used during a Free Attack. It's pretty unclear atm.

- Jee
 
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Darryl Gardner
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I'm going back to an old discussion about free attacks found here: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/quote/16911040 but I think is relevant for this discussion.

In which Jason stated:
jchill7 wrote:
Hey Guys,

The intent here is that Free Attacks are a slightly different animal to a normal Attack. A Free Attack is still a Melee or Ranged Attack, but it does not use your Hero's Base Combat value (nor any stat boosts to your Combat value), and does not gain the bonuses from other Items/weapons you are carrying. It does still generally gain any bonuses you have based on your abilities (such as +1 Damage vs Undead, etc).

-Jason

I would think that the same would apply to any other abilities that aren't your normal attack. i.e. they don't gain the benefit from any of your other items.

edit: I believe it is relevant as the free attack is a fixed combat value, as is swinging fists and I believe neither should gain from any other combat bonuses
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Jee Fu
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FencePost wrote:
I'm going back to an old discussion about free attacks found here: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/quote/16911040 but I think is relevant for this discussion.

In which Jason stated:
jchill7 wrote:
Hey Guys,

The intent here is that Free Attacks are a slightly different animal to a normal Attack. A Free Attack is still a Melee or Ranged Attack, but it does not use your Hero's Base Combat value (nor any stat boosts to your Combat value), and does not gain the bonuses from other Items/weapons you are carrying. It does still generally gain any bonuses you have based on your abilities (such as +1 Damage vs Undead, etc).

-Jason

I would think that the same would apply to any other abilities that aren't your normal attack. i.e. they don't gain the benefit from any of your other items.

edit: I believe it is relevant as the free attack is a fixed combat value, as is swinging fists and I believe neither should gain from any other combat bonuses
This would mean that the socket runes I mentioned earlier (say he had one in his duster) wouldn't apply. That seems freakishly counter-intuitive, given that you have to have to give up your normal attack to use the Bandido's ability. There is no such restriction on a Free Attack, hence the need to keep item powers in check. I would buy that you couldn't use your weapon specific bonuses at all (+dmg included), but it doesn't indicate that at all ... meh its just really unclear.

- Jee
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Adria D
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Inspector Jee wrote:
This would mean that the socket runes I mentioned earlier (say he had one in his duster) wouldn't apply. That seems freakishly counter-intuitive, given that you have to have to give up your normal attack to use the Bandido's ability. There is no such restriction on a Free Attack, hence the need to keep item powers in check. I would buy that you couldn't use your weapon specific bonuses at all (+dmg included), but it doesn't indicate that at all ... meh its just really unclear.

- Jee
I've just done exactly what it says for Swingin' Fists: a 3 combat attack against every adjacent model. That could end up being a lot of dice before you start adding extras from other abilities.

I normally get 6 combat dice in a turn with my Bandido. To use Swingin' Fists, I give up those 6 dice for 3 dice against every adjacent model. As long as there are at least 3 enemies adjacent to me, I'm coming out ahead. And the more monsters there are adjacent to me, the better the benefit.

If there's something big I really want dead, I'll use Rage instead of Swingin' Fists, and get an extra 4 dice (using all combat/damage bonuses) at the much higher cost of 3 grit.

The only modifier I use with Swingin' Fists is the +1 damage on critical hits that I get from my Eye Stalks mutation. It may be incorrect, but mutations feel like something that should apply to all attacks. Sometimes they're beneficial (Eye Stalks), sometimes they're not (Tail with a Mouth), but I don't think they're something that could be turned off for a special attack.
 
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Ondrej Kocnar
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Adria wrote:
Inspector Jee wrote:
This would mean that the socket runes I mentioned earlier (say he had one in his duster) wouldn't apply. That seems freakishly counter-intuitive, given that you have to have to give up your normal attack to use the Bandido's ability. There is no such restriction on a Free Attack, hence the need to keep item powers in check. I would buy that you couldn't use your weapon specific bonuses at all (+dmg included), but it doesn't indicate that at all ... meh its just really unclear.

- Jee
I've just done exactly what it says for Swingin' Fists: a 3 combat attack against every adjacent model. That could end up being a lot of dice before you start adding extras from other abilities.

I normally get 6 combat dice in a turn with my Bandido. To use Swingin' Fists, I give up those 6 dice for 3 dice against every adjacent model. As long as there are at least 3 enemies adjacent to me, I'm coming out ahead. And the more monsters there are adjacent to me, the better the benefit.

If there's something big I really want dead, I'll use Rage instead of Swingin' Fists, and get an extra 4 dice (using all combat/damage bonuses) at the much higher cost of 3 grit.

The only modifier I use with Swingin' Fists is the +1 damage on critical hits that I get from my Eye Stalks mutation. It may be incorrect, but mutations feel like something that should apply to all attacks. Sometimes they're beneficial (Eye Stalks), sometimes they're not (Tail with a Mouth), but I don't think they're something that could be turned off for a special attack.

There is nothing about not being able to use items, nor it is a Free Attack. I believe item bonuses do apply.

I would also be interested in hearing how slightly different Marshalls Whirling Strike should be interpreted.

We definitely need more tight designer ruling concerning quite a lot of things. It makes me sad how we sometimes devolve into rules lawyering.
 
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Adria D
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okocnar wrote:
There is nothing about not being able to use items, nor it is a Free Attack. I believe item bonuses do apply.

I would also be interested in hearing how slightly different Marshalls Whirling Strike should be interpreted.

We definitely need more tight designer ruling concerning quite a lot of things. It makes me sad how we sometimes devolve into rules lawyering.
It's not a free attack, and I don't think I said anywhere that it was. I have said that's it a special attack. The ability states that you replace your regular (melee item boosted) attack with a special attack consisting of 3 combat hits against every adjacent enemy. I believe it is similar to a Free Attack in that you just get what the ability says: 3 combat against every adjacent enemy. No bonuses. The Bandido is using his fists, and only his fists.

I could see an argument for skill-based bonuses, but we've ruled that this is a special attack that supercedes those. We've used mutation bonuses/penalties as seemed appropriate. I wouldn't allow the use of any items that have to be equipped in hands though. If you start adding weapon stuff in, then Swingin' Fists gets pretty strong and makes the third tier Rage ability look pretty overpriced and underwhelming.


I haven't seen the Marshal's Whirling Strike in use, and I don't currently have a book handy to see how it compares.
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Angelus Seniores
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adria is correct
such special attacks only use the dice as indicated in the ability, which is already very powerful as it gives you potentially up to 8 attacks!
the title refers to him using his fists, so logically you dont use any items at all for this special attack (no bonuses)

Though, I agree some general rule principles in this games need to be written down properly instead of left open to interpretation
 
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Ondrej Kocnar
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Angelsenior wrote:
adria is correct
such special attacks only use the dice as indicated in the ability, which is already very powerful as it gives you potentially up to 8 attacks!
the title refers to him using his fists, so logically you dont use any items at all for this special attack (no bonuses)

Though, I agree some general rule principles in this games need to be written down properly instead of left open to interpretation

I could see it working, but what confuses me is when the unclear rules
are talked about not in argumentative, but in declarative form by people
who are not designers.

Arguing rules based on theme can be misleading, even if here it seems
that it could be an designer intend.
 
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Angelus Seniores
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its declarative as this instance is clear;
-a normal melee attack follows the rules as described in the rulebook which indicates to add any equipped weapons bonuses
-as you sacrifice that normal melee attack and replace it with a special one it only uses the strict sense of the ability which in this case is a pure 3 combat attack vs each model, nothing in the ability says to add any weapons bonuses
-further you must also note that you cannot use hits that you rolled vs one model on another model (which a normal melee attack allows you to do) as each attack targets a specific model.

further, Flying Frog has a habit of going with the explanation that makes the most sense and in that perspective, their use of the title "swinging fists" gives a clue that you are only using fists and omit to specify "you only use your fists, dont use any weapon bonuses" in the ability text box, just to keep the text as short as possible.
they didnt feel the need to specify it a second time.

If they wanted it to work as a normal melee with weapons bonuses, then they would have used a different wording
more like; "for 1 grit your melee attack resolves once per every adjacent model using 3 as your combat rating" (the use of "sacrifice" would be unnecessary)
 
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Ondrej Kocnar
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Angelsenior wrote:
its declarative as this instance is clear;
-a normal melee attack follows the rules as described in the rulebook which indicates to add any equipped weapons bonuses
-as you sacrifice that normal melee attack and replace it with a special one it only uses the strict sense of the ability which in this case is a pure 3 combat attack vs each model, nothing in the ability says to add any weapons bonuses
-further you must also note that you cannot use hits that you rolled vs one model on another model (which a normal melee attack allows you to do) as each attack targets a specific model.

further, Flying Frog has a habit of going with the explanation that makes the most sense and in that perspective, their use of the title "swinging fists" gives a clue that you are only using fists and omit to specify "you only use your fists, dont use any weapon bonuses" in the ability text box, just to keep the text as short as possible.
they didnt feel the need to specify it a second time.

If they wanted it to work as a normal melee with weapons bonuses, then they would have used a different wording
more like; "for 1 grit your melee attack resolves once per every adjacent model using 3 as your combat rating" (the use of "sacrifice" would be unnecessary)

Ok, now you actually argue for this.
That is much better.
Still it contains assumption even as I deem them quite rational.

Note that for example you also use ability name and thematic considerations to justify your interpretation.
But we can be of course sure this would not work in case
of all game effect or would be very controversial.

I for example was using thematic reasons to argue about Hellfire shots,
but other were using power-considerations and strict RAW interpretation
against my view (even up to point thinking that theme simply does not have to be considered at all IMO).
See:

I am of course happy that there are people helping other with
rule understanding, but assumptions and interpretations should
not be simply stated as fact.
 
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Jee Fu
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Angelsenior wrote:
its declarative as this instance is clear;
-a normal melee attack follows the rules as described in the rulebook which indicates to add any equipped weapons bonuses
-as you sacrifice that normal melee attack and replace it with a special one it only uses the strict sense of the ability which in this case is a pure 3 combat attack vs each model, nothing in the ability says to add any weapons bonuses
-further you must also note that you cannot use hits that you rolled vs one model on another model (which a normal melee attack allows you to do) as each attack targets a specific model.

further, Flying Frog has a habit of going with the explanation that makes the most sense and in that perspective, their use of the title "swinging fists" gives a clue that you are only using fists and omit to specify "you only use your fists, dont use any weapon bonuses" in the ability text box, just to keep the text as short as possible.
they didnt feel the need to specify it a second time.

If they wanted it to work as a normal melee with weapons bonuses, then they would have used a different wording
more like; "for 1 grit your melee attack resolves once per every adjacent model using 3 as your combat rating" (the use of "sacrifice" would be unnecessary)
How would you rule weapon bonuses that have wordings like "All of your Combat Hits are +1 damage"? It's clearly a bonus generated by the weapon, but it clearly applies to all Combat Hits whether they're done with that weapon or not - just as a Upgrade Rune in your duster might, which you surely wouldn't exclude. Here's another one: what if my weapon allows me to heal 1 sanity whenever I kill something? Can I also not use that ability during Swingin' Fists?

- Jee
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Angelus Seniores
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its quite clear if you fully understand the implications of the title of the ability "swinging fists"
you are using only fists, so no weapons are considered equipped/in use so you get no bonus whatsoever from items that you would normally equip in hand.

but of course only FFP can give a definitive answer to how they intend it to work.
 
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Sir Gaulen de Loria
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dahak wrote:

First theSwinging fists which I think is roll three dice and apply the result to all the adjacent figures including other Heroes, I.e if you roll a 5 and two 6s you do one normal and two critical hits to each adjacent figure [And your friends aren't going to appreciate not getting defense.

Many people think this ability Swingin' Fists is overpowered but I'm with Dahak: "3 combat melee attack to every model" doesn't mean 3 combat rolls to each model separately. Only one 3 combat attack should be made and the result apply to all the adjacent models (enemies/heroes). So if I get 2 hits then 2 hits are done to every adjacent model and then rolls are made separately to see damage.

 
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Dan Quirand
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How does knuckle dusters fit in?

My understanding is choose equipped items.
Choose to do swingin fists do a 3 combat to all adjacent 1 grit
Knuckle Dusters GAIN +2 combat 1 grit

This seems in my mind to work mechanically for a 5 attack
As well as thematically

Thoughts?
 
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Jee Fu
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NoChildren64 wrote:
How does knuckle dusters fit in?

My understanding is choose equipped items.
Choose to do swingin fists do a 3 combat to all adjacent 1 grit
Knuckle Dusters GAIN +2 combat 1 grit

This seems in my mind to work mechanically for a 5 attack
As well as thematically

Thoughts?
Swinging Fists is a "no weapons factored in" scenario. The jury is still out on whether or not other non-weapon gear can effect it (like Runes or the Military Gloves)

- Jee
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Dan Quirand
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It's weird to me that swinging fists couldn't have brass knuckles attached to them, especially since it came with City of the Ancients. It seems like it was meant to work in a punching attack. I get why other weapons aren't a thing but thematically this one weapon doesn't make sense not to work, especially if gloves do. I love my bandido but I hate most of the skill trees.
 
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Maurice Oksman
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NoChildren64 wrote:
It's weird to me that swinging fists couldn't have brass knuckles attached to them, especially since it came with City of the Ancients. It seems like it was meant to work in a punching attack. I get why other weapons aren't a thing but thematically this one weapon doesn't make sense not to work, especially if gloves do. I love my bandido but I hate most of the skill trees.

I’ve gone back and forth on the knuckle-duster thing over and over—And i’d say that’s one of the few weapons might work with it based on the wording, ”Once per turn, you may use 2 grit to gain 2 combat”

Now maybe this is a case of them not carefully wording an item, but technically speaking, I feel like it should say “Once per turn, during a Melee Attack, you may use 1 grit to gain +2 Combat.”

Then again—I guess I can see this being abused—on the other hand, so many other newer classes have some extreme abilities.

Not to mention the fact, that most people’s primary tactic in this game is to have 2 blockers mitigating swarms, and putting your guy in the middle of a swarm in front of your ‘choke point’ (in order to maximize this ability) is pretty dangerous.

I really don’t know & wish there was a more official answer already—not to mention that Whirling Strike & Swinging fists, while seemingly similar, are definitely worded differently.

I guess I’ll just have to stick to how I’ve been playing it—disallowing any weapon interaction with those 2 abilities unless they are universal and non-weapon based.

I mean, I just think the following 4 abilities/items could benifit from an official clarification/FAQ: Swinging Fists, Rage, Whirling Strike and Knuckle Dusters.

*Update*=I’d also like to add 1 final thing about Whirling Strike: Use 2 Grit as an attack to roll your full combat against every adjacent enemy

What’s super annoying about the wording here is the omission of the phrase “Instead of using a melee attack”, as seen in Swingin’ Fists. This is so ambiguous—One might even consider it a free attack (I don’t) based on its wording alone.

If I had to rewrite Whirling Strike as I think it’s intended, i’d say: Instead of a normal Melee attack, you may perform the following Special Action: Use 2 Grit as an attack to roll your Full Combat against every adjacent Enemy

Both Whirling Strike & Swingin’ Fists can benefit from the use of the phrase “Special Action”, which can subsequently be defined in future rulebooks and FAQs as being ineligible from any weapon benifits, but can be benifit from non-weapon universal bonuses.

Now—I know this goes against my earlier claims on Knuckle dusters, but I’m probably fine with letting that go unless they find a way to rewrite Knuckle Dusters to specifically circumvent this rule—butnI can live with Knickle Dusters also being excluded.

Anyways—Cheers!


 
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Jee Fu
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Maurice_Oksman wrote:


I mean, I just think the following 4 abilities/items could benifit from an official clarification/FAQ: Swinging Fists, Rage, Whirling Strike and Knuckle Dusters.

*Update*=I’d also like to add 1 final thing about Whirling Strike: Use 2 Grit as an attack to roll your full combat against every adjacent enemy

What’s super annoying about the wording here is the omission of the phrase “Instead of using a melee attack”, as seen in Swingin’ Fists. This is so ambiguous—One might even consider it a free attack (I don’t) based on its wording alone.

If I had to rewrite Whirling Strike as I think it’s intended, i’d say: Instead of a normal Melee attack, you may perform the following Special Action: Use 2 Grit as an attack to roll your Full Combat against every adjacent Enemy

Both Whirling Strike & Swingin’ Fists can benefit from the use of the phrase “Special Action”, which can subsequently be defined in future rulebooks and FAQs as being ineligible from any weapon benifits, but can be benifit from non-weapon universal bonuses.

Now—I know this goes against my earlier claims on Knuckle dusters, but I’m probably fine with letting that go unless they find a way to rewrite Knuckle Dusters to specifically circumvent this rule—butnI can live with Knickle Dusters also being excluded.

Anyways—Cheers!

Whirling Strike is not meant to be in the same category as Swingin' Fists, regarding Gear stacking.

You can tell because it uses the phrasing "full combat" instead of mentioned a specific number, as Swingin' Fists does: "... do a 3 combat melee attack ..." I will grant you that neither of these Upgrades are worded well, but if you understand how Free Attacks work, puzzling out what to do here isn't too bad.

Whirling Strike is actually the clearest of the two: it says that you use it "... as a Attack roll your full combat against every ...", which is inline with the wording newer content uses (like the Sorceress Spells from FoFo): it means "doing this thing counts as your 1 non-Free Attack for the Turn." It also says "full Combat" - not "base", not X Combat, FULL Combat - which means it wants you to literally roll one regular Melee Attack, with all the bells and whistles your Gear can muster, against each Enemy next to you one after the other. If seems a lot better than Swingin' Fists, that's because it is - and it should be, because a) it requires being a melee Marshal, which means ditching an entire Starting Ability and Weapon, b) it's a Tier 3 Upgrade in a Tree that nobody wants to go down, and c) it's twice the price using a resource (Grit) the Marshal gets at a half the rate the Bandido does. It must be better. It must be WAY better.

Unlike the Marshal Upgrade, Swingin' Fists specifies the exact number of Combat to be used - the only other place we see that is with Free Attacks. This makes it likely that the designers intent here was to remove Gear/Items from the equation. And the differences in the two Upgrades' availability, investment, and cost practically demand it.

In the case of the Knuckle Dusters: they're Gear. Swingin' Fists: no. Whirling Strike: yes. If you need a thematic justification, know that fighting with brass knuckles is actually a skill. Swinging with wild abandon, such that you might even hit your friends, is unlikely to dependably gain the benefits of anything meant to be used as a weapon.

Maurice_Oksman wrote:

Both Whirling Strike & Swingin’ Fists can benefit from the use of the phrase “Special Action”
You would need to define "Special Action" somewhere official, as it is nowhere in the Rulebook. Granted, that's never stopped them before but lets at least try to stick to what's there. I feel that introducing a whole new category of Attacks at this point will cause more problems than it solves.

- Jee
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