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Subject: Implications of running on the Corp's turn rss

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First get your dose of spoilers at http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1265870/valley-1st-data-pack...

An Offer You Can't Refuse wrote:
Choose a central server. The Runner may initiate a run on that server during which he or she cannot jack out. Otherwise,...


This card enables the Runner to run during the Corp's turn for the first time. I am interested in sorting out the implications of this, particularly when it comes to simultaneous effects being resolved by the Corp first.

When Encountered

Femme Fatale's bypass ability is simultaneous with ICE's "when encountered" effects (Tollbooth, Data Raven, Komainu, etc.). On the Corp turn, the ICE goes first! So the runner loses 3 credits, runner takes a tag or jacks out, Komainu gains subs, etc. before the bypass.

[Edit: Rewrote this section to remove discussion of events. Thanks Kandiru / paedia]

Paid Abilities

There are some corner cases here that now break in the Corp's favor.

For example, Parasite'd Himitsu Bako vs Kit with Datasucker. Normally it is impossible for the Corp to burn Kit's ability but also save the Himitsu from the Parasite+Datasucker combo. But on the Corp turn it can pull Himitsu back in step 3.1 after Himitsu is encountered but before the Runner can use Datasucker.

The Corp can wait to use Corporate Troubleshooter until step 3.1, since the Troubleshooter will land before the Runner can use icebreakers. This can make a difference to Nasir since he might want to spend credits in 2.3 after seeing the Troubleshooter. [Edit: Just noticed that 3.1 isn't a rez cards window. So this is much less exciting. Still, the Corp can wait to put cash into the Troubleshooter until 3.1 in case Nasir wants to spend an amount based on how much the Corp spends...]


When Successful

Some minor differences in upgrades vs Runner cards that care about success. For example, the Runner will have to deal with an Ash trace before gaining Desperado/Gabe credits.

Similarly, John Masanori will not draw a card until after Hokusai Grid triggers.

What else am I missing? :)
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Ony Moose
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The main one which will have the biggest effect I think you mentioned briefly:
Femme and Komainu. Komainu now gains it's subroutines BEFORE femme can bypass, which means it will cost 5C rather than 0C. If the runner cannot pay, they now have no cards in hand and cannot jack out... prognosis does not look good!

Other than that, the fact it's the corp's turn means the runner has no Clicks, and so Howler->Janus is going to hurt.

Inside Job and Feint don't apply since the runner doesn't get the chance of play them. Doppleganger would let the runner make an additional run of their choice though, if the run was successful and that would happen after any damage from Dedicated Response Team, while normally the extra run happens first (letting you trash the response team.)
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Colin Thomas
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In the "Offer" situation, the runner can't play Feint, Inside Job, or Recon. They can initiate a run or not.
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Kandiru wrote:
Inside Job and Feint don't apply since the runner doesn't get the chance of play them.


Oh, duh. Of course. :)

Kandiru wrote:

Doppleganger would let the runner make an additional run of their choice though, if the run was successful and that would happen after any damage from Dedicated Response Team, while normally the extra run happens first (letting you trash the response team.)


Nice!
 
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Lieven De Puysseleir
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Hi, I'm not much into anr anymore lately but I might consider that the designer actually wants to treat that run as if it were the runners turn, no?
But then how to say if he has any clicks to pay for bioroid ice?

So answering my own question: it's probably meant to be played as if it were the corps turn with all beforementioned effects, right?
 
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lievendp wrote:
Hi, I'm not much into anr anymore lately but I might consider that the designer actually wants to treat that run as if it were the runners turn, no?
But then how to say if he has any clicks to pay for bioroid ice?

So answering my own question: it's probably meant to be played as if it were the corps turn with all beforementioned effects, right?


The card would need to say that for it to be that way. So far there's no effects which simulate it being another player's turn.
 
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Philip Goldfarb Styrt
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Runner having no clicks makes this a powerful splash in HB, especially for Ichi and Janus (or at least the threat of them). Less so for something like Eli that just ends the run, or even a Heimdall 1.0 that does 1 brain damage and then ends it; you either want there to be enough threat that they'll be hurt before the run ends that they'll give you a point, or enough actual hurt that they SHOULD HAVE given you the point. Awakening Center could also be a good threat here.

Note that any installs during the run (say, via Clone Chip) would benefit from Kate's ability since it's the Corp's turn. On the other hand, recurring credits (Stealth, Toolbox, Cyberfeeder, Whizzard, etc) that were spent on the Runner's turn are not yet refilled, so you could really take advantage of timing windows against a runner using those.
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Ken Dilloo
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Could provide another way to go about tag and bag. Data Raven was mentioned, but I have been playing a deck with Bernice and ChiLo Grid. Making them run through a tag flood server, on my turn, seems like a great idea.

I don't think any runner, in their right mind, would go running into waters with unknowns (even known unknowns), on he corp's turn.
 
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Ony Moose
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ChiLo + Flare + Scorched Earth would be a horrible combo to run into on the corp's turn!

The Flare even trashes the plascrete for you

DataRaven would be terrible as the runner would just choose to End The Run rather than take the tag.
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Michael Redston
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Quetzal could finally use her ability on the corp's turn.
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kroen wrote:
Quetzal could finally use her ability on the corp's turn.


Heh well technically it has always been usable because only icebreakers are restricted by the "you can only break subroutines during an encounter" rule but currently there's no cards which would notice or care.
 
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Jonathan Ferro
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lievendp wrote:
But then how to say if he has any clicks to pay for bioroid ice?


Correct, he does not. Likewise, Strongbox is perfect protection. But how does this interact with Ruhr Valley?
 
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Nova Cat
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JonRock wrote:
lievendp wrote:
But then how to say if he has any clicks to pay for bioroid ice?


Correct, he does not. Likewise, Strongbox is perfect protection. But how does this interact with Ruhr Valley?

The runner can always choose not to pay the cost, and the run would be cancelled (I assume).
 
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Novacat wrote:
The runner can always choose not to pay the cost, and the run would be cancelled (I assume).


In this case I believe this would mean that the Corp gains An Offer You Can't Refuse as an agenda point. Otherwise this contradicts the ruling on Forged Activation Orders vs Archer regarding declining additional costs. (See "A quick follow-up question" here: http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/910859/clarification-regardi...)
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Tim Meng
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Chum becomes more lethal with a scored Nisei MK II. If they don't break it, you can end the run as soon as the next encounter starts, before they have a chance to break any subroutines.
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Steven Tu
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trekkienz wrote:
Chum becomes more lethal with a scored Nisei MK II. If they don't break it, you can end the run as soon as the next encounter starts, before they have a chance to break any subroutines.


But they do get to jack out before the next ICE is encountered, no?
 
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Michael Redston
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Tuism wrote:
But they do get to jack out before the next ICE is encountered, no?

Nope, An Offer You Can't Refuse doesn't allow jacking out.
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Steven Tu
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kroen wrote:
Tuism wrote:
But they do get to jack out before the next ICE is encountered, no?

Nope, An Offer You Can't Refuse doesn't allow jacking out.


YES.

Man, I can't remember rules AND cards at the same time these days. So out of it :/
 
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Warren S
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I plan to put this in a deck with Chum and self destruct.

Offer on server with Chum, another ice and self destruct.
Runner Hits Chum
Rez Self Destruct on Approach of next ice
Trash Self Destruct when the runner encounters ice.
6 net damage.

This assumes the runner can’t brake chum and you have the creds for the trace.


Vapo crushed my dreams.
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Neil G
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Zartoch wrote:
I plan to put this in a deck with Chum and self destruct.

Offer on server with Chum, another ice and self destruct.
Runner Hits Chum
Rez Self Destruct on Approach of next ice
Trash Self Destruct when the runner encounters ice.
6 net damage.

This assumes the runner can’t brake chum and you have the creds for the trace.


Doesn't work, Self-destruct can only be installed in a remote server, and you have to choose a central server for Offer.
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Zartoch wrote:
:( Vapo crushed my dreams.


Woah woah friend. Let's not be hasty. Just add a little Bullfrog to your dream.
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