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Antike Duellum» Forums » General

Subject: Without event cards rss

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John
Greece
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Hello all,

I adore Imperial as a 2 player game because it has no luck and it feels like playing a game of Go and Chess. With it I am hooked on the Rondel mechanism so what better finding this game that is designed for 2 players.

I have just read the rules and, as you should have noticed by now, I don't like the event cards. Yes, they are open before they can be chosen but they kinda mess up with the open information style. So I want to ask you this:

Have you tried some games without them? How did they go?

I reckon that they are a catch-up mechanism but in other abstract games there isn't and this is what I like about them. If a player is better and he goes far ahead of you, just stop the game, acknowledge the defeat, find what went wrong and restart.

Even if you haven't tried the non-event type, in your own experience, how would it work?

Thank you

John
 
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Chris Johnson
United States
Azusa
California
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The event cards are there as a catch up mechanism, but they also ensure that the same lines of play will have different outcomes from game to game.

You could play without them, but I wouldn't.

If you're really, really hung up on perfect information/no luck, lay enough of them for a game out in sequence, so both players can see what's coming up, and incorporate that information into their plans as appropriate.

 
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Scott Seifert
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Little Canada
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I would still replace the event cards with something, because they add an additional nuance to play than just a catch-up mechanic (rather, you can't call it a catch-up mechanic when the player with the most points is not necessarily the player winning, and in order to catch up in points you must give the other player an equal number of event cards).

For example, I try to improve my board position without scoring personages in order to avoid giving my opponent an advantage. If I can get the same amount of income from two temples and four cities as I can with 8 cities, then I should prefer the former because it doesn't give my opponent an event card. The only exception, of course, is when the supply of personages is limited and if you don't take it now your opponent will (most of the time, only scholars fall under this category).

Similarly, because the opponent only receives one event card no matter how many cities I take in a turn, players are encouraged to take multiple cities in one turn.

And this is specifically for event cards, but the decisions I described above also depend on what event cards are up. If none of them are particularly harmful to me, I'll go ahead and conquer a city or score a personage. If there is an event card I want (and I don't think my opponent will take it), I may capture a city even though they can easily take it back next turn. Because of this, if you are only against the randomness of the event cards, you could lay out several of them (or all of them), at the start of the game, with only three of them available at a time as usual.

Otherwise, I'd at least replace receiving an event card with receiving a coin.
 
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Germany
Münster
NRW
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Semaphore wrote:

Even if you haven't tried the non-event type, in your own experience, how would it work?


Let me answer that by quoting a part of my own collection comment for Antike Duellum:

"As a reply to another comment (from Wentu) I have read here:
I don't consider it a drawback at all that the game still has a remaining small luck factor (the order in which the event cards are drawn). To the complete contrary, I think that is an extremely important feature, which makes all the difference between a bad game and an extremely good game for me!
Otherwise the game would be determinate and computers would be able to solve it and show which player always wins with which nation with perfect play - it is much less complex than chess after all (which computer can't yet solve and probably won't be able to do so for the decades to come). I assume that very good players could eventually determine which player will prevail in Antike Duellum with perfect play even without computer help.
Another important difference to chess is that Antike Duellum has no draws. In chess it is likely that with perfect play from both opponents, the game will end in a draw in spite of White's advantage in the beginning. But in Antike Duellum, whoever holds an advantage (be it whatsoever tiny) will win with perfect play. Which means that being determinate is a higher drawback than in chess where players can at least have a fair fight without one player basically already having won in the beginning.
So I wouldn't want to play a version of Antike Duellum without event cards - certainly not after it has been solved! I would rate such a version of the game around a measly 4 instead of my whopping 9. The devil of many games is in the details!"
 
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Filip Cam
Belgium
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I also think the event cards detract from both the spirit and the pleasure of the game. I also don't think AD has a smaller decision space than chess, on the contrary.

I haven't tried it myself since I've mostly played on yucata.de, but I fully expect the game to work just fine if you replace the event cards by a coin or a resource, or remove them altogether.
 
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Maxime Gelinas
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Personally, I haven't played without the cards, and I'll show my bias right now: I wouldn't want to either. The event cards are more than a catch-up mechanism, they're a dissuasive factor for aggression. They dissuade you from conquering a single city and they dissuade you from expanding too fast. I've seen many times a "cold war" starting because of the mere apparition of the Mutiny card. This kind of emergent gameplay, in my eye, builds tension and anticipation.

I can understand the feeling against catch-up machanisms, if I play better than my opponent, then I deserve to get ahead and to stay ahead. However, not all games can manage without such a mechanism in my opinion. Powergrid, for example, wouldn't make much sense without its many catch-up mechanisms. Some games need a way to prevent a player from snowballing ahead. I haven't given it much thought, but I'm 100% certain that the designers did give it a lot of thought. I wouldn't be surprised if the game would become imbalanced without it.

Anecdotally, some friends once played the game and had forgotten about the event cards when conquering. Their game resulted in a slow grind from both sides, each player conquering and re-conquering the same cities over and over again. Peraphs more experienced players would have played better and it wouldn't have had that result, they were fairly new to the game after all. However, the game they played reminded me of a game of Go, in which there is no Ko rule.
 
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Federico
Italy
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Maximnicov wrote:
The event cards are more than a catch-up mechanism, they're a dissuasive factor for aggression. They dissuade you from conquering a single city and they dissuade you from expanding too fast.

Conquering a single city is usually terribly inefficient anyways, but I agree on the event cards affecting the pacing in interesting ways.

I'd suggest you to display also the first (or first two) event cards on the deck to give the players more information on what is going to be available after their move and diminish the impact of unbalanced event cards.
 
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