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Subject: Simplified Building Setup rss

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Kjetil Svendsen
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The rules state that you must shuffle all the buildings and form stacks of three.

Rules wrote:
Don’t look at the buildings below the top one; they will be revealed as the destruction ensues.


It's a little bit difficult to shuffle the tiles (especially since they're two-sided), and the stacks have a tendency to get messed up during play, so you can sometimes see what building is under.

So I thought of an alternative way to set up the buildings:

Put all buildings in a draw bag. Draw 3 tiles for each borough. Each time you destroy a building, flip it over, and draw a new building from the bag.


I haven't tried this, but I think the changes to the gameplay would be small. The main difference from the normal rules is that you will sometimes have less than 3 buildings in a borough (when you empty a stack). With this variant it is very unlikely that there's less than 3 buildings in each borough.

Anyone who can think of a reason why this would not be a good idea?
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James Ross
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I can understand why you would want to house rule this aspect of the game, and I see nothing wrong with it. However, if someone had a really good memory they could count the remaining tiles in the bag and perhaps give themselves an edge in games with more players.
 
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Kjetil Svendsen
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yetikeeper wrote:
However, if someone had a really good memory they could count the remaining tiles in the bag and perhaps give themselves an edge in games with more players.


This wouldn't make any difference. If you were to count tiles, it doesn't matter if the unrevealed tiles are in a bag or hidden under other buildings. And it would actually be of very little help to count the tiles.

However it can matter if you know what building is under another building.

Let's say you're only missing 3 points, and you have rolled three Destructions. In the borough you're in there's two stacks, both with a strength of 2. If you know that there's a strength 1 building under one of them, you will of course chose that building to destroy.
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Michael Nerman
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That seems pretty cool. Aside from the issues you mentioned, which taken individually seem pretty minor to me, this would speed up set up time.

Having only played a handful of times, it seems that the stacks don't run out very often, maybe one or two a game. Is that correct?
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Kjetil Svendsen
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nerman8r wrote:
Having only played a handful of times, it seems that the stacks don't run out very often, maybe one or two a game. Is that correct?


Yes, that is my impression too. Because of the extra ways to get VP, compared to King of Tokyo, our experience have been that this finishes must faster. Your estimate of one or two stack running out per game seems right to me.
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Johnnie Lieske
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It's a superb idea. I'm dedicating a bag to this game right now!
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Kjetil Svendsen
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I will try it the next time I play. If anyone else tries it, I would be happy if you could post how it went
 
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Zodar H
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Chetil wrote:

I haven't tried this, but I think the changes to the gameplay would be small. The main difference from the normal rules is that you will sometimes have less than 3 buildings in a borough (when you empty a stack). With this variant it is very unlikely that there's less than 3 buildings in each borough.

Anyone who can think of a reason why this would not be a good idea?


Personally I see a big issue with this gameplay wise, at it means there is much less incentive to move around if your area keeps filling up with buildings all the time. Of course, military units still provide an incentive to move away from the area, but I like the fact that an area can become destroyed so you have to move to another area to find fresh buildings. I will probably try your solution out though.

I completely agree with you on the problems, and it's made worse in my opinion that there are uneven amounts of lv1, lv2 and lv3 buildings. It is impossible to completely shuffle the tiles since both sides are different, and my preffered solution of keeping the military units face up, shuffling each level of units, then creating 15 stacks starting with lv1, then lv 2, then lv3 military units, then flipping them to hide what buildings are at least. This would be so much nicer if each stack at least had 1 lv1, 1 lvl2 and 1 lvl3 building/unit, but no, they are unevenly distributed.

The only major flaw in an otherwise excellent game.
 
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Michael Nerman
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Zodar wrote:
Chetil wrote:

I haven't tried this, but I think the changes to the gameplay would be small. The main difference from the normal rules is that you will sometimes have less than 3 buildings in a borough (when you empty a stack). With this variant it is very unlikely that there's less than 3 buildings in each borough.

Anyone who can think of a reason why this would not be a good idea?


I completely agree with you on the problems, and it's made worse in my opinion that there are uneven amounts of lv1, lv2 and lv3 buildings. This would be so much nicer if each stack at least had 1 lv1, 1 lvl2 and 1 lvl3 building/unit, but no, they are unevenly distributed.

The only major flaw in an otherwise excellent game.

I think you're quite wrong here. I mean, yes if you're going to shuffle them up that way, it makes sense that you'd want an even amount of each one, but the uneven distribution is quite intentional and not "flawed" if you're playing the game normally. If they were even distributed, the burroughs would quickly become filled with 2 and 3 buildings, making it hard to score anything off of destruction and making destruction crappier than hearts and lightning bolts.
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Michael Nerman
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It would be a little fiddly, but you could keep track of how many "extra" buildings each burrough had. Each burrough would start with six extra buildings and every time you smash a building you reduce that number. Once there aren't any extra buildings, you don't replace destroyed buildings. It's not exactly the same as having three stacks, but is a little closer to the original game.
 
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Kjetil Svendsen
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nerman8r wrote:
It would be a little fiddly, but you could keep track of how many "extra" buildings each burrough had. Each burrough would start with six extra buildings and every time you smash a building you reduce that number. Once there aren't any extra buildings, you don't replace destroyed buildings.


I was thinking of something similar, but I realised that this would only matter if you destroyed all 9 buildings, and I have never experienced that we have gone through 2 stacks in one borough, let alone all 3 stacks. If you destroy a lot of buildings, you get the attention of the army, so the destruction of buildings are usually more or less evenly distributed among the boroughs, as you will normally avoid the places with a lot of armies.
 
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Michael Nerman
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Chetil wrote:
nerman8r wrote:
It would be a little fiddly, but you could keep track of how many "extra" buildings each burrough had. Each burrough would start with six extra buildings and every time you smash a building you reduce that number. Once there aren't any extra buildings, you don't replace destroyed buildings.

I was thinking of something similar, but I realised that this would only matter if you destroyed all 9 buildings, and I have never experienced that we have gone through 2 stacks in one borough, let alone all 3 stacks. If you destroy a lot of buildings, you get the attention of the army, so the destruction of buildings are usually more or less evenly distributed among the boroughs, as you will normally avoid the places with a lot of armies.
Yes, but if you always have three buildings out, there will be a greater chance of a 1 building being available, so more buildings will be destroyed than in the normal game.
 
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Zodar H
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nerman8r wrote:
Zodar wrote:
Chetil wrote:

I haven't tried this, but I think the changes to the gameplay would be small. The main difference from the normal rules is that you will sometimes have less than 3 buildings in a borough (when you empty a stack). With this variant it is very unlikely that there's less than 3 buildings in each borough.

Anyone who can think of a reason why this would not be a good idea?


I completely agree with you on the problems, and it's made worse in my opinion that there are uneven amounts of lv1, lv2 and lv3 buildings. This would be so much nicer if each stack at least had 1 lv1, 1 lvl2 and 1 lvl3 building/unit, but no, they are unevenly distributed.

The only major flaw in an otherwise excellent game.

I think you're quite wrong here. I mean, yes if you're going to shuffle them up that way, it makes sense that you'd want an even amount of each one, but the uneven distribution is quite intentional and not "flawed" if you're playing the game normally. If they were even distributed, the burroughs would quickly become filled with 2 and 3 buildings, making it hard to score anything off of destruction and making destruction crappier than hearts and lightning bolts.


Yes, you're of course right that it makes a gameplay change and it is not the uneven distribution in itself that I consider flawed - it's the issue that it is impossible to shuffle the tiles to create this random distribution with a variety of buildings. I much like the flavour of the mechanic, but I just dislike how it's implemented. As long as you try any kind of shuffle on the table, using either buildings or units face up while shuffling, the people observing and definitely the one doing the shuffling will have some unfair advantages. Now, they may not be major advantages, but they are there.

The uneven distribution is a game design decision for sure - but I just find it hard how anyone can be expected to fairly shuffle tiles that are marked on both sides.
 
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Michael Nerman
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I mix them up, then stack them, then take 3 off the stack at a time. That way you don't see the ones underneath. I suppose if someone was trying very hard and had a great memory they would still know.

Another option would be to throw them all in a bag and grab the stacks of 3 out of the bags. Some of them would end up upside down of course, but you'd just right them when that happened.
 
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Tobias
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Isnt this a bit of a theoretical problem?

I mean are you honestly telling me that there are people who memorize the buildings during setup?
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Kjetil Svendsen
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Celtic Joker wrote:
Isnt this a bit of a theoretical problem?

I mean are you honestly telling me that there are people who memorize the buildings during setup?


No. Not during setup. During play. When moving the monsters around on the board, the stack of buildings often get nudged so you can see what's under. But besides this, this method would also be quicker to set up.
 
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Stephen Michael Hickey
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I like the use of a draw bag to prevent the building stacks getting knocked and revealed prematurely.

Even tempted to put all 9 tiles face up and available, in each district at the start of the game.

On reflection strike that last idea. There is not enough room for placing tiles face up.

I'm getting to accept that while you can't easily shuffle all the tiles; that's not necessary either.

I split all the tiles into thirds then shuffle a few times and cut once. That's usually sufficient to conceal what's underneath the top tile in each stack.


 
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Michael Nerman
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Steve99 wrote:
I like the use of a draw bag.

Even tempted to put all 9 tiles face up and available, in each district at the start of the game.

Intriguing, but the board would be very cluttered if you did that. You could stack all the similar ones, but it might still be pretty cluttered.
 
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Carlos Soto Power
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I like this simple variant. I'll be using this in all my games.
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Ian Toltz
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This is a great idea. Totally stealing it.
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Michael Nerman
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I've been using it and haven't looked back. Starting a game is significantly quicker.
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Ian Toltz
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Aye, just used it last night, and it was a lot better.

Only downside is it's easy to forget to pull a new tile, but then again you know there should always be 3 buildings in each borough so it's easy to correct.
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Carlos Soto Power
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Asmor wrote:
Only downside is it's easy to forget to pull a new tile, but then again you know there should always be 3 buildings in each borough so it's easy to correct.

I agree, it's easy to forget and my playing group constantly has been forgetting to replace the destroyed buildings when playing with this variant; otherwise, it's a great and simple solution. I think a way to avoid the forgetting issue could be to establish the next as a game rule: "immediately after destroying a building (before continuing with his/her turn) the active player must replace it with a new one from the bag".
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Kjetil Svendsen
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I haven't played KoNY since I suggested this variant, so haven't had the chance to test it out myself yet. So thank you to all for the feedback!
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Alex Baeza
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It's a great idea, I would personally use a counter for each stack to be sure when a stack had ran out because that is also important, at some point you may end up with 2 or 1 staks of buildinga depending on the ensued destruction.

I don't know, some tiny dies? You can find a bag of those for a few dlls.
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