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Subject: So here's my problem... rss

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Armand
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I've played Netrunner, Doomtown Reloaded, Warhammer whatever it's called, Star Wars, and a couple other lcg/ccg/dueling cardgames.

There's one aspect from a design perspective to all these games that I really don't like. Here's my narration of a typical match:

A: "Haha! Now you will feel the wrath of this card that you didn't know I have and you could not possibly have prepared for!"

B: "Haha! I have prepared for it because I heard you mention that you enjoy the wrathfullness of that card while you were talking to Ed when you went to get a snickers!"

A: "Haha! But I did not mention to Ed this card which is equally full of wrath!"

B: "Haha! I happened to have lucked into the perfect card that will counter the wrath of that card! And now I play this card which you had no idea I had and could not have possibly prepared for!"

A: "Indeed your wrath is mighty and I must concede..."


I know eventually you get into the metagame to the extent where you're weighing possibilities ("He played that there so he probably has one of those in his hand to back it up...") but for me these games often end with a very unsatisfying feeling of "There's nothing I could have done. I just guessed wrong.".

To some extent that's the inherent rock/paper/scissors of these games, but I also see it as a shortcoming of the genre. "Gotcha!" cards are not really a part of most boardgame design anymore, but they still prevail in these card games.

That said, I really like the idea of a great 2p card duel.

So, my question: Is Omen going to scratch my itch? Or is it, for the reasons above, also not going to be my cup of tea?


EDIT: I think maybe I let my attempt at comedy get in the way of clarity. What bothers me specifically is not the metagaming, it's losing because of what is for me an unacceptable amount of hidden information. Or winning for that matter! Both are unsatisfying.
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Ken B.
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There are very, very few "instant" responses in Omen. There is hidden information in that you won't often know what's in your opponent's hands, but during your turn, you're playing with almost perfect information.

In fact, the only negative I could ever say about this game is that I wish there was a touch more "Gotcha!" on other player's turns. Literally, that's my only complaint.
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Eagle-Eyed Superhawk
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I'm not familiar with Doomtown or Warhammer. I'm not entirely sure I grasp your issue with Netrunner or Star Wars, it seems like a broad indictment of all card games. If that's correct then I think Omen will fail for you in the same way. There's plenty of hidden information and topdecking and potential metagaming.

As card games go, Omen is excellent. But it's still a card game.

Hope my answer wasn't totally useless...
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Serious? Lee
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Omen does have a swingy feel to the rhythym of play due to big combo plays and gotcha moments; however, it happens on both sides so that you may get hit hard but you're just as likely to come back and hit your opponent right back. You can't prepare for what's coming from an opponent's hand, but you can attempt to make it hard for them to get their cards in play to affect you.
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Jonathan Ramundi
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Zedsdead wrote:
I'm not familiar with Doomtown or Warhammer. I'm not entirely sure I grasp your issue with Netrunner or Star Wars, it seems like a broad indictment of all card games. If that's correct then I think Omen will fail for you in the same way. There's plenty of hidden information and topdecking and potential metagaming.

As card games go, Omen is excellent. But it's still a card game.

Hope my answer wasn't totally useless...
This. While you may like the idea of a two-player card game, as you claim, you don't seem to actually like them.

I've played quite a few games like this and can't think of a single one you'd enjoy based on what you've detailed above. Sorry. This might be a genre that just isn't for you.
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Jeff Meyer
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You can play it draft style, so there is a known set of cards in play but you don't necessarily know what your opponent will have or their strategy.
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Armand
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Jotora wrote:
While you may like the idea of a two-player card game, as you claim, you don't seem to actually like them.

I've played quite a few games like this and can't think of a single one you'd enjoy based on what you've detailed above. Sorry. This might be a genre that just isn't for you.


You may be right. That said, Traders of Osaka, Innovation, and Morels are some of my favorite games. I've never played Traders or Innovation with more than 2.

In all three games, when you lose, you never, ever say, "Well, there's nothing I could have done about that..." In those games you kick yourself for what you didn't see, not what you didn't know.
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Jonathan Ramundi
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doctoryes0 wrote:
Jotora wrote:
While you may like the idea of a two-player card game, as you claim, you don't seem to actually like them.

I've played quite a few games like this and can't think of a single one you'd enjoy based on what you've detailed above. Sorry. This might be a genre that just isn't for you.


You may be right. That said, Traders of Osaka, Innovation, and Morels are some of my favorite games. I've never played Traders or Innovation with more than 2.

In all three games, when you lose, you never, ever say, "Well, there's nothing I could have done about that..." In those games you kick yourself for what you didn't see, not what you didn't know.
Well, I meant 2-player card dueling/battling games--sometimes called "top-decking" games, both affectionately and derogatorily. I'm not familiar with Traders of Carthage, but I know the other two don't fit within that sub-genre.

Thematic differences aside, cards in those types of games have a plethora of strengths and special abilities (which may or may not be 'balanced' on purpose), traits/types which special abilities may reference, and more. Generally, both players also have their own decks to draw from. Omen is different in this regard (though it has a variant that changes this).

One of the games I was going to suggest before was BattleCON. It's a great two-player dueling game with unique concepts. However, I stopped myself because I remembered the line "these games often end with a very unsatisfying feeling of "There's nothing I could have done. I just guessed wrong."" from your OP. Not that it's purely a guessing game. It's modeled after fighting video games, which have elements of bluffing, baiting, and "reading" one's opponent. Games (in fighting video games, and BattleCON) can come down to guessing and preparing for your opponent to do one thing, but them doing another and losing as a result...but this should be satisfying and engaging in the meantime, and also meant to evolve the metagame, even if just between two players ("Okay, last time I was in this situation he did this, so I should do this instead...unless he suspects that's what I'm going to do, in which case I should do this, but...") which is really fun if you like these types of games.
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doctoryes0 wrote:

EDIT: I think maybe I let my attempt at comedy get in the way of clarity. What bothers me specifically is not the metagaming, it's losing because of what is for me an unacceptable amount of hidden information. Or winning for that matter! Both are unsatisfying.


I also find pretty much all "customizable" card games unsatisfying, but I love card games in general.

Assuming it's not just card games that you dislike. Omen is going to have a lot less hidden information because you know exactly what the deck is composed of. You still don't know exactly what cards you opponent has but you are drawing from the same deck so you have a lot more information about the probabilities than in (L/C)CGs.

Some amount of hidden information and swingyness is inherent to card games since that's what cards do best. If the card effects aren't dramatic than they might as well not be cards.

Another option for you if you want non (L/C)CG "card dual" game is Yomi or if you don't want any hidden information BattleCON: War of Indines. If you don't mind a lack of direct conflict (but no shortage of player interaction), Race for the Galaxy is a great card dual, that takes a lot of inspiration from (L/C)CGs.
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Jason Carlough
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doctoryes0 wrote:

You may be right. That said, Traders of Osaka, Innovation, and Morels are some of my favorite games. I've never played Traders or Innovation with more than 2.


If you like Innovation I can't see any particular reason why you wouldn't like Omen, especially the current version.
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Armand
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Yeah, I think it's worth a shot at least. I have a feeling I'll end up liking it.

Tonight was Doomtown Reloaded league night and I had a good time. I got some guys to take a break for some Cyclades so that helped!

Unfortunately I missed the Omen Kickstarter while I was on the fence... cry
 
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Yiorgos Golfinopoulos
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Judging by your preferences: Avoid Omen.

Those LCG's are a hundred times better and if you have problems with these than you won't stand Omen, which features some stupidly swingy combos combined with a lack of catching up mechanisms and uninspired gameplay. It is not a good game. It is linear, boring and completely undeserving its fame.

If you want a self contained 2 player duel experience, with no surprises once you have gone through the decks, try Blue Moon Legends. It's fantastic, superbly balanced and ridiculusly replayable.
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Boofus wrote:
Judging by your preferences: Avoid Omen.

Those LCG's are a hundred times better and if you have problems with these than you won't stand Omen, which features some stupidly swingy combos combined with a lack of catching up mechanisms and uninspired gameplay. It is not a good game. It is linear, boring and completely undeserving its fame.

If you want a self contained 2 player duel experience, with no surprises once you have gone through the decks, try Blue Moon Legends. It's fantastic, superbly balanced and ridiculusly replayable.


Next time, please tell us exactly how you feel.

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Yiorgos Golfinopoulos
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Misterboy wrote:
Boofus wrote:
Judging by your preferences: Avoid Omen.

Those LCG's are a hundred times better and if you have problems with these than you won't stand Omen, which features some stupidly swingy combos combined with a lack of catching up mechanisms and uninspired gameplay. It is not a good game. It is linear, boring and completely undeserving its fame.

If you want a self contained 2 player duel experience, with no surprises once you have gone through the decks, try Blue Moon Legends. It's fantastic, superbly balanced and ridiculusly replayable.


Next time, please tell us exactly how you feel.

devil laugh


You got me there. Maybe I overexpressed myself. It is honest advice though.
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Aditya C
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When you play CCGs (or LCGs like Netrunner) an important skill is knowing what kind of deck your opponent is running. It is often quite easy to deduce all the threats that you need to watch out for. It's not like you are facing random cards that have no business being there.

But regardless, Omen is not like those games. The focus of the game is generating card advantage through clever combinations and exploiting your resources. And the game is not "too swingy". It just lends itself to several big plays that can be mitigated with good planning. And usually those big plays won't cripple you unless it is at the end game. It's a very good game.
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Adam Daulton
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Thought I'd chime in here. I'm a long time Warhammer: Invasion player and also play Android: Netrunner competitively. I think Omen fits what you are looking to avoid in such games, that unknown, metagame decision deckbuilding. I like that part of those games, but I understand those that do not. Omen gives me a similar feel as any two player dueling game that is collectible, but with a set of cards everyone can know. Of course the first few times playing it, you probably won't know what to expect, but once you know the cards you can prepare for it a bit.

I will say tough, this is with all the love in the world for Omen, that it can have huge combo turns. If you aren't into that, then you might want to stick with the more Euro variety type two player games like Traders of Osaka or Jaipur.

Anyways, there you have it.
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Wesley Chan
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Armand, I just realized we play in the same store. I have the Olympus Edition of Omen, if you want to try it out. I've got some of the other mentioned 2P duel games mentioned here, as well as many others in the same category (Blue Moon Legends, BattleCON have been mentioned, I have another pile of 2P games) Next Wednesday?
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Armand
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mrthefter wrote:
Armand, I just realized we play in the same store. I have the Olympus Edition of Omen, if you want to try it out. I've got some of the other mentioned 2P duel games mentioned here, as well as many others in the same category (Blue Moon Legends, BattleCON have been mentioned, I have another pile of 2P games) Next Wednesday?


Hi Wesley!

That would be awesome, I'd love to try it!

I have played BattleCON with Andy btw, which a few people have mentioned. I thought it was very good. Blue Moon I owned briefly, just the 2p Kosmos edition with two races. I wasn't a fan...
 
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Ken B.
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Boofus wrote:
Judging by your preferences: Avoid Omen.

Those LCG's are a hundred times better and if you have problems with these than you won't stand Omen, which features some stupidly swingy combos combined with a lack of catching up mechanisms and uninspired gameplay. It is not a good game.



Bullshit. You may not like it, but plenty of people do--so an decree of "it is not a good game" is, well, bullshit.

Not every game needs completely open information, point salad, and catch-up mechanisms that result in games ending with scores 35-33-32-29.
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I was looking at Blue Moon Legends as well but just stumbled on the Omen kick starter. I got Omen because it looks easier to pick up and play and all the extra goodies look cool.

Another game to consider is Summoner Wars or Flash Duel Second Edition. BattleCON is fun but another game where you almost have to have a committed opponent.

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ooogene wrote:
Thought I'd chime in here. I'm a long time Warhammer: Invasion player and also play Android: Netrunner competitively. I think Omen fits what you are looking to avoid in such games, that unknown, metagame decision deckbuilding. I like that part of those games, but I understand those that do not. Omen gives me a similar feel as any two player dueling game that is collectible, but with a set of cards everyone can know. Of course the first few times playing it, you probably won't know what to expect, but once you know the cards you can prepare for it a bit.

I will say tough, this is with all the love in the world for Omen, that it can have huge combo turns. If you aren't into that, then you might want to stick with the more Euro variety type two player games like Traders of Osaka or Jaipur.

Anyways, there you have it.


Fan boi

Adam hit is right on all aspects, my heart is Euro but I love this one. I love it so much I kickedstarted it again.
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franklincobb wrote:
Boofus wrote:
Judging by your preferences: Avoid Omen.

Those LCG's are a hundred times better and if you have problems with these than you won't stand Omen, which features some stupidly swingy combos combined with a lack of catching up mechanisms and uninspired gameplay. It is not a good game.



Bullshit. You may not like it, but plenty of people do--so an decree of "it is not a good game" is, well, bullshit.

Not every game needs completely open information, point salad, and catch-up mechanisms that result in games ending with scores 35-33-32-29.


Whatever you say, Ken. I guess sitting through a game that you have no chance of winning because your opponent just got luckier and unleashed a broken combo before you could, is your idea of fun. Knock yourself out.

I 'd second Summoner Wars and Flash Duel, although I feel Flash Duel is a little bit simplistic and not so replayable. Oh, and Pixel Tactics too.

Omen can't hold a candle to all those other games mentioned. There are no real choices in the game. There is no balance between the cards. It all just comes down to pure luck. That is why Omen is not a good game. it has nothing to do with the fact I don't like it. I don't like Through the Ages either but it is a great game.

And I should mention that I owned Omen in the past. Twice.
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Ken B.
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Boofus wrote:

Omen can't hold a candle to all those other games mentioned. There are no real choices in the game. There is no balance between the cards. It all just comes down to pure luck. That is why Omen is not a good game. it has nothing to do with the fact I don't like it. I don't like Through the Ages either but it is a great game.



Well, all I can say is the old stereotypical response--sit down with me and play, and we'll see what's "all luck." Where to deploy, how to combo your card powers, and what to offer during the last step are all big choices, and the game is won or lost there, not on topdecks.

Ooh, and let's play draft as well, so I can really show you about "luck." (Disclaimer: Draft is probably the best way to play Omen, and by far my favorite.)

I will agree with you that Through the Ages, Summoner Wars, Pixel Tactics, and Flash Duel are all great games too. Since we share those opinions, it's puzzling why you think you can "objectively" deem Omen a "bad game". But as you say, knock yourself out.
 
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franklincobb wrote:
Where to deploy, how to combo your card powers, and what to offer during the last step are all big choices, and the game is won or lost there, not on topdecks.


They are all big OBVIOUS choices. Hence, it comes down to luck.

Drafting is obvious too, because some cards are so much better than others. There's not even an option of not claiming them before your opponent.

Ultimately, I think there is no skill involved in this game. One goes from beginner to expert in a matter of a few plays, once one knows all the cards actually. There is no way to outmaneuver your opponent and stay competitive if you get a worse hand than him and he has half a brain. Or if you happen to draw the wrong boon when he draws a better one.

Not to mention that a game should not allow for situations like this in the first place.

Anyway, I have played a ton of card games and most of them were much more complex than Omen. I am pretty good at them too. Omen is a simple game, so I am quite certain that there is nothing in its strategy that eludes me.

As for objectivity, I claim that Omen is not a good game and voice it. I never claimed that I am objective (I cannot be by default), but I try to be. That's how much objective any single person can get.

I am not going to derail the thread any longer. Thanks for the chat.
 
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Boofus wrote:
They are all big OBVIOUS choices. Hence, it comes down to luck.

This is the obvious response of someone who has obviously not played enough to know what is obvious and what isn't, and thus obviously says it's all luck.
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