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Subject: BG Token Movement - Co-Exist tokens movement question rss

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Brian Hargraves
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Quick question that I don't see covered anywhere.

Rule as Written: You must announce at the beginning of the Revival and Movement Round, before any movement is started, all territories in which you no longer wish to remain in coexistence. Anytime you end your move in an occupied territory in which you previously have no tokens or another player moves his tokens into a territory only you occupy, you must announce immediately whether or not you will coexist there.


What happens when the BG moves Co-Existing Tokens into a territory that has "non" co-existing BG tokens?

1) Immediately decide and change all of the tokens in the territory to Co-Exist or not Co-Exist?
2) Have 2 separate stacks in the territory, one Co-Exist and one not Co-Exist?
 
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Ken
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I think the rules already cover this - "... in which you previously have no tokens..." means that if you did have tokens there, you already made your decision before any movement started. You don't get to switch your decision by moving more tokens into the area.
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Brad Johnson
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I agree with Ken. Also, just as a general interpretation, I think coexistence is a characteristic of the space, not the tokens, so you can't have both coexisting and non-coexisting tokens in the same space.
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Brian Hargraves
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perfalbion wrote:
I think the rules already cover this - "... in which you previously have no tokens..." means that if you did have tokens there, you already made your decision before any movement started. You don't get to switch your decision by moving more tokens into the area.


So if I made my decision that the tokens already in the territory are "combat side up" (at the beginning of movement) and then when moving, choose to move co-existing tokens into that territory (to add to my troop count), from your replies, I would need to change the moving ones to combat side up to match the tokens that were already there.

That does make sense if considering that the "territory" is what dictates co-existence or not. The territory the co-existence markers moved "from" had a marker, but the territory they moved "to" didn't.

It looks like I'll be making some markers specifically for marking territories in the future rather then just flipping the tokens from one side to the other. Thanks!

 
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Ken
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redcometx wrote:
So if I made my decision that the tokens already in the territory are "combat side up" (at the beginning of movement) and then when moving, choose to move co-existing tokens into that territory (to add to my troop count), from your replies, I would need to change the moving ones to combat side up to match the tokens that were already there.


My versions of the game just have one color for the BG, so I'm envious if yours are different. That said, yes, that's the way I'd say it plays. The territory is really what sets the condition. For example, if the BG are in a territory alone, they must immediately decide whether or not to coexist when someone else moves in (per the rule you quoted).
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Matt Smith
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Way I teach it:

BG may only declare coexistence for any territory at the moment that territory is contested. So that means (A) when BG ship or move into an occupied territory or (B) when another faction ships or moves into a territory the BG alone occupy. Note that this happens instantaneously, so if an enemy faction ships into a BG-occupied territory or stronghold the BG player must decide whether to declare or not before that faction makes their movement.

Also remember that it is coexistence that is declared, not non-coexistence. Once declared (we use glass jewels to designate coexisting territories) the declaration can only be revoked at the beginning of the Movement round before anyone has acted.

Also, consider the following scenario:
BG alone occupy Carthag with 10 tokens.
Atr ships 5 into Carthag.
BG does NOT declare coexistance.
Atr moves all 5 tokens out of Carthag into imperial basin.
BG again alone occupy Carthag.
Then Hark ships 10 into Carthag.
BG declares coexistence this time.
Hark laugh and then move all 10 over to Arakeen.
Now Carthag is only occupied by BG, but they are all coexisting and BG player cannot revoke that until next turn.
So Fremen moves 1 token in to control Carthag without even battling the BG for it.
This was all perfectly legal!

Also consider this:
BG is in Cielago South with 10 tokens.
Atr moves in 5 tokens.
BG does not declare coexistence.
Now Hark moves in 10 tokens.
Whether BG wants to declare coexistence now, she cannot because the territory was already contested and she missed her chance!

And this one:
BG has 5 tokens in Carthag.
Atr moves in 5 tokens.
BG chooses to coexist.
BG moves 7 more into Carthag.
All 13 BG tokens in Carthag MUST coexist.
Same goes for if the original 5 opted NOT to coexist (all 13 must also not-coexist)

Coexistence is by territory, not token group, and once declared cannot be revoked until the next turn, even if all BG tokens are removed or if all other factions are removed.

BG cannot even try this trickery:
BG has 5 tokens coexisting in Carthag. On her turn, she moves the 5 out into the Imperial Basin (Carthag is now empty), and then plays Hajr to move those or another group back into Carthag. The new tokens in Carthag must STILL coexist because coexistence is by territory.
 
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Ken
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Your examples involving movement don't sound correct to me, Matt. The rule quoted states "...or another player moves his tokens into a territory only you occupy..." as a condition for declaring coexistence. So in your first example, I think that the moment the BG are alone in the territory, they cease coexisting (with whom are they coexisting? Themselves?). When the Harkonnen move out and the Fremen move in, the BG will get to decide that they will or will not coexist with the Fremen based on my reading of the rule. Now if the Harkonnen had left one token behind, then they BG would not be able to change - they already made their decision.

That may be wrong based on an errata or clarification - I don't play the game an enormous amount. But that's the way that we've played it and I (obviously) would argue it should be played. I look forward to being told why I'm wrong.
 
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Matt Smith
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I think that only works when Coexistance was not already declared; once declared, it can only be undeclared at the start of the next turn. I don't think coexistence is nullified just because the BGs end up all alone at some later point in that turn.

We've had a few instances where BG coexisted in a stronghold while 2 other factions duked it out; both factions annihilated each other completely (the winner dialed everything!) and although the BG were the sole occupants they did not control the stronghold (for spice or winning purposes) because they had declared coexistence for that area that turn.

Brad's WBC clarifications agree with this aspect in section XV points 6 and 7
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Aaron Bredon
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the rule also states "Those territories in which you choose to be (or remain) in coexistence must stay in coexistence for the rest of the turn."

This was omitted in the snippet of the rule stated in the original post.
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Michael Marvosh
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I think we actually play this reversed; Coexistence is the default state and BG can declare non-coexistence when the turn starts and when people move into their territories.

That way BG doesn't end up fighting a whole bunch of battles all over the map when they forget to declare Coexistence at the beginning of the turn.

I will think about the implications of that when I have some attention and brainpower to spare.
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Ken
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abredon wrote:
the rule also states "Those territories in which you choose to be (or remain) in coexistence must stay in coexistence for the rest of the turn."

This was omitted in the snippet of the rule stated in the original post.


See, told you I was wrong.

I don't get to play this nearly enough. Every time game day at Brad's comes along, I'm already booked with something 'cuz I know I'd get a game there.
 
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Matt Smith
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Yeah, it is worth noting that Coexistence is declared and binding. Non-coexistence is only implied by not declaring coexistence.
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Klaude Thomas
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tempus42 wrote:
I agree with Ken. Also, just as a general interpretation, I think coexistence is a characteristic of the space, not the tokens, so you can't have both coexisting and non-coexisting tokens in the same space.

Yup. Brad's concept of coexistence attaching to the space not the tokens is very helpful.
 
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