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Dead of Winter: A Crossroads Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: Can a player refuse a hand-off? rss

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Chris Witt
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Sorry if this has been asked; I tried to search, but couldn't find anything. I only found this thread: http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1216271/can-you-refuse-heal-... that says you can't refuse a heal. This is different enough that I thought it worth asking.

We had a situation where our Main Objective was 2 food for each player and each player had to have a weapon equipped to at least one of their survivors. My personal secret objective was "Loner" so I had to only have one survivor. I was about to kill one of my guys, but then another player came and killed the zombies I was hoping would kill me, and then handed off a weapon to me. He also had enough food to contribute to meet the main objective, which would end the game, meaning I would lose, because I didn't kill my second guy. I wanted to refuse the gun, so that the main objective would not be met, and I'd still have another turn to kill my guy before ending it.

Although thematically, it makes no sense that you can force someone to take (and keep) a gun; they could refuse it, or just drop it. But then, it's like healing, which has been ruled that you cannot refuse healing from the doctor.

We ultimately decided that I was not allowed to refuse the hand-off. Was this correct?

After all that, though, I actually did still win, since I had made noise searching, and got exactly the right number of zombies from the noise to kill my other guy (not the one with the gun). But I did not like having it come down to luck like that (although it did make it more exciting!).
 
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Ossian Grr aka "Josh"
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I think it breaks down to 2 things:
1) If someone takes a Handoff Action, you can't refuse.
BUT
2) Discussion is encouraged before the action is taken.

The other player should have talked through his plan before moving to your location and giving you the gun. If he gave you a chance to subtlely hint that "maybe we need a little more time before the game ends", then maybe he wouldn't have given you the gun in the first place.

You can't reveal your Secret Objective, but I don't see anything wrong with revealing the fact that it hasn't been met yet. (which could also be a cover/lie for the Betrayer to stall, of course)

 
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Ryan M
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Personally, I don't think that is allowed. You can't force a hand-off on another player. They have to be willing to take the item. I would argue this is different than the heal/medicine situation due to the differences between the free nature of playing cards copmared to the restriction associated with what you can or can't do with an equipped weapon.

It's an interesting question though.
 
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Joel Carson
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Mools wrote:
Personally, I don't think that is allowed. You can't force a hand-off on another player. They have to be willing to take the item. I would argue this is different than the heal/medicine situation due to the differences between the free nature of playing cards copmared to the restriction associated with what you can or can't do with an equipped weapon.

It's an interesting question though.


Hehe, the "Loner" agenda is so wonderfully frustrating. But I think the OP's scenario is actually why you cannot refuse a handoff. If someone wasn't willing to end the game because of their secret objective being unmet, the entire group may end up losing. So you can force an item into their hand whether they want it or not, in order to wrap up the game early.

And, to be fair, if you're the only player without equipment, and you refuse the item, meaning you're intentionally stalling the game when everyone else wants to wrap it up, your team should exile you.
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Chris Witt
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Yeah, I did express that I did not want anyone to try to save my guys, and then after he did it, I expressed that I would like more time before we ended it. Unfortunately (for me, at the time, anyway), most of the people I was playing with tend to be of the opinion that if they can win, they will do what it takes to win, and avoid any risk that delaying might cause. They will not risk delaying the game (and possibly losing morale, etc.) just to help someone else.

One guy (player "A") even did the following: He had the pirate character, which lets him steal a card from someone once per turn. He was going last, and this was the same last round that we knew would end the game. He knew we as a group had met our main objective, and he personally had met his secret ones, too, so he was completely safe. He still went ahead and used the pirate's ability to steal a card from one of the other players (let's call that player "B"). This card that was stolen was one of the ones B needed for his secret objective, which caused him to lose (he would have won otherwise). Kind of a dick move, if you ask me. There was no risk that B was a betrayer, or that anything could be done to screw the game up for A; he just did it for absolutely no benefit to himself. It's really weird, since A is actually one of the nicest guys I know in real life.
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David "Davy" Ashleydale
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If I were Player B I would have said, "Very funny, Player A. We all know you could do that if you really wanted to and we couldn't stop you. Good one. Wait, what? You seriously want to take one of my cards at the end of the game?? Okay, joke's over. Please don't take one of my cards. I seriously need my cards. Please."

And if he had still done it at that point for no other reason than that he could, I would seriously think twice about playing games with him again.
 
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Kelly Bass
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RebelScum wrote:
...Kind of a dick move, if you ask me. There was no risk that B was a betrayer, or that anything could be done to screw the game up for A; he just did it for absolutely no benefit to himself. It's really weird, since A is actually one of the nicest guys I know in real life.
Agree. A jerky move. If you play with him again, on the last round if everyone has won, you could exile him, which would most likely mean he wouldn't win. Though, this would make you just as jerky as him.
 
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JonnyRotten
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Handing off is consensual. You can't force the other player to take the equipped item if they don't want it.
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David Peck
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Can you lie about what you are passing like in Catan?
 
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Xenothon Stelnicki
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WHAT? People do that? They'd learn a quick lesson in repercussions if they did it with me.

Sydcomebak wrote:
Can you lie about what you are passing like in Catan?
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Sydcomebak wrote:
Can you lie about what you are passing like in Catan?


The card you are handing off is face up. Can't lie about that. Though do go ahead and try
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David "Davy" Ashleydale
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Sydcomebak wrote:
Can you lie about what you are passing like in Catan?


I don't think you can lie about what you're passing in Catan. Are you saying that you can make a deal with someone where you promise to give them a wheat if they give you a sheep, and you give them a wood instead? I really don't think that's allowed.
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David Peck
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randomlife wrote:
Sydcomebak wrote:
Can you lie about what you are passing like in Catan?


I don't think you can lie about what you're passing in Catan. Are you saying that you can make a deal with someone where you promise to give them a wheat if they give you a sheep, and you give them a wood instead? I really don't think that's allowed.


I haven't looked at the rules in years, and honestly, we've never seen it done, but we always thought of it as possible...
 
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Tom Chick
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jgilmour wrote:
Handing off is consensual. You can't force the other player to take the equipped item if they don't want it.


Johnny, out of curiosity, if healing is NOT consensual, why is handing off consecsual?

-Tom
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JonnyRotten
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Because healing is a card effect. It says "Remove a Wound from a Survivor at a Location that you Control a Survivor at" (Paraphrased). So it's just following the card effect. Personally, I wouldn't waste medicine on someone that didn't want me to. Especially since if they aren't worried about the threat, than we should be saving it for a Crisis if needed.

 
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Tom Chick
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Excellent. That makes perfect sense.

-Tom
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Borrowing this thread, is there any way to get rid of an equipped item other than getting my survivor killed or handing the item off to another (willing) survivor? I.e. can I discard an item (makes sense thematically)?
 
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Alex W8er
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muhe wrote:
Borrowing this thread, is there any way to get rid of an equipped item other than getting my survivor killed or handing the item off to another (willing) survivor? I.e. can I discard an item (makes sense thematically)?


No, you can't discard it. But you can contribute it to the crisis.
 
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PatientNo742 wrote:
muhe wrote:
Borrowing this thread, is there any way to get rid of an equipped item other than getting my survivor killed or handing the item off to another (willing) survivor? I.e. can I discard an item (makes sense thematically)?


No, you can't discard it. But you can contribute it to the crisis.

Good point!
 
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