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Subject: Why isn't Crash Space a good meat damage defense? rss

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Michael Redston
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Just so we're clear: I'm talking in-faction, and in non-tag me decks.

If you have a Crash Space out, the corp has two options:
#1: SEA-Scorch-Scorch (doesn't kill you if you have 5 cards in hand)
#2: SEA-trash-Scorch (likewise)

Is it because the need to end your turn with 5 cards rather than 4? (or bring out a second Crash Space) because I think it's a small price to pay for never having dead cards in your deck (against non-Scorch decks, Crash Space still helps you remove Siphon tags).

And if it is a good defense, then why don't all criminals opt for it instead of Plascrete? (again, the non-tag me ones.) And yes I'm aware some competitive decks do, but why not all?

 
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Brad Metz
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I use it occasionally and your points are valid. It's probably habit and the fact that it's a resource that sidelines it, in decks where I'm already using decoy for other cards, this is a no brainer.
 
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Andrew Keddie
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I suspect the main reason is that where Plascrete is variable in the amount of damage or can prevent (and can save you more than once for a single install), crash space is a one-shot all our nothing prevent three. Which is fine, it just makes it less versatile against damage (balanced against the extra versatility of clearing tags).
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J. Chris Miller
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Re: Why isn't Crash Space a good meat damagefense?
Also, you don't have to keep 5 cards in hand with Plascrete. You can run with 4. Which to me is a significant difference. Not having to draw up to 5 every turn is a benefit.

Crash Space also isn't as resilient against tagstorm decks because they can just trash it and scorch, scorch. In fact, I don't think there's a runner window to trash Crash Space before Corp's first click so you couldn't trash it in response to them trashing it.
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Christian Eipper
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I think you just don't have to be quite as careful with a plascrete out. Having to have five cards instead of four doesn't sound like a huge deal but let's say you access a Snare, for example. There's just no way to draw back up to five cards and clear the tag (unless you have an increased handsize ond/or extra clicks). I've also been in situations where having to end my turn with five cards would have forced me to miss out on an opening, because I had to gain money and play a card and run and there wasn't time to draw up.
Plascrete can also allow you to float a tag for a turn. Sure, there's a risk but unless you opponent had three Scorched Earths and the money to play them right then you're probably fine. Crash Space, being a resource, could get trashed and then SEA-Scorch-Scorch becomes an option again.
On the other hand, hardware destruction has become more of a thing and that certainly doesn't help Plascrete.
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Scott Rubin
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kroen wrote:
Just so we're clear: I'm talking in-faction, and in non-tag me decks.

If you have a Crash Space out, the corp has two options:
#1: SEA-Scorch-Scorch (doesn't kill you if you have 5 cards in hand)
#2: SEA-trash-Scorch (likewise)

Is it because the need to end your turn with 5 cards rather than 4? (or bring out a second Crash Space) because I think it's a small price to pay for never having dead cards in your deck (against non-Scorch decks, Crash Space still helps you remove Siphon tags).

And if it is a good defense, then why don't all criminals opt for it instead of Plascrete? (again, the non-tag me ones.) And yes I'm aware some competitive decks do, but why not all?

Because people these days aren't just playing SEA Source, they are playing Midseasons. Midseasons -> Trash Crash Space -> Trash Crash Space

Next turn you die.
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Michael Redston
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If you're really having hard times ending your turns with 5 cards, you can just dig for a second Crash Space. Two should get you covered just fine.
 
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General Norris
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The main reason is people wishing to use Siphon and not having to remove tags to avoid double-Scorch.

Everything else is extremely minor.
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Evgeny Reznikov
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Midseasons is a good reason.
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Captain Frisk
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Midseasons, snare, and being able to go tag me (yes, even if you don't intend / want to) are all valid reasons.

Sometimes that data raven is guarding R&D, and you just have to go for it.
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Eric Taylor
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General_Norris wrote:
The main reason is people wishing to use Siphon and not having to remove tags to avoid double-Scorch.

Everything else is extremely minor.


Pretty much this. If you want the option to run tag-me, Plascretes are better. If you are going to be a bit more cautious and drop tags after Account Siphoning (typically in a deck with more resources), then Crash Space would be superior.
 
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Thomas R
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Actually, I think everyone has also overlooked another reason Plascrete Carapace is preferred: single-Scorch kill protection. This one is a lot more invisible until you've played a lot with either Crash Space as a substitute, or you've played both pretty extensively with a flatline deck, but there are tons of times in the early and mid game when the runner gets down a piece of meat damage protection and has to keep up a pace of running that keeps them in the one to two card range. It won't be obvious to the runner, but if the corp is holding SEA Source and 1x Scorched Earth, they can't kill a runner in this state who has Plascrete Carapace installed, but can kill someone with Crash Space.

Basically, it's important to remember that you're not just defending against the full combo, you're also defending against the partial combo, and not only does Plascrete Carapace help in all the ways people have mentioned, it also provides the partial combo defense.
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Andrew Keddie
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anathomical wrote:
It won't be obvious to the runner, but if the corp is holding SEA Source and 1x Scorched Earth, they can't kill a runner in this state who has Plascrete Carapace installed, but can kill someone with Crash Space.


What? Crash Space protects against 3 damage. As long as you have 1 card in hand, a single Scorch can't kill you. Or am I missing something?
 
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Jacek Wieszaczewski
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SEA Source - trash Crash Space (it's a resource) - SE
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Andrew Keddie
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hsiale wrote:
SEA Source - trash Crash Space (it's a resource) - SE


D'oy! That's the obvious one I'm missing. Thanks!
 
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Michele Lupo
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Basically this. Crash space is not a good scorch protection because it's a resource. As such it is a lot more vulnerable than Plascrete.
 
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Allan Clements
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I use crash space, because I run Fall Guy and Decoy, and it works on the supplier to get it for free. Can also use it to remove tags from things like data raven, or from siphoning.

Not usually too worried about midseason, just have lots of money!
 
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Eric Taylor
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hsiale wrote:
SEA Source - trash Crash Space (it's a resource) - SE


Correct, but so long as you have 5 cards in hand, Crash Space still saved you from a Scorched Earth kill because his first click is SEA Source and then either he double Scorches (brings you down to 0 cards, but still alive) or he trashes Crash Space and Scorches (brings you down to 1 card).

Plus Crash Space does something Plascrete does not, and that's "helps even if the corp doesn't care about meat damage." So long as you'll use those recurring credits to wipe tags from at least 2 Account Siphons (or other self-tagging effects), Crash Space was a net credit-positive play.

Again, I'm not saying Crash Space is better. In the right circumstances (Criminal, wants meat damage protection, using more resources and wants to abuse Account Siphon nonetheless), it's worth considering as a substitution for Plascrete, though.
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Scott Rubin
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Kamakaze wrote:
I use crash space, because I run Fall Guy and Decoy, and it works on the supplier to get it for free. Can also use it to remove tags from things like data raven, or from siphoning.

Not usually too worried about midseason, just have lots of money!
Ok, so how many crash space do you have? 2 or 3? I assume 3 fall guys. How many decoys?

That's a LOT of deck slots. Plascrete will protect you even better, and with only 3 slots letting you put in more econ and cards that actually WIN the game as opposed to cards that prevent you from losing the game.
 
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Patrick Jamet
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2x Crash Space + 1x Decoy are enough for me. It's not a waste of deck space because Crash Space removes the tags for free and I don't play tag-me.

Most of the time, the Corp isn't prepared to deal with Crash Space. Neither Taurus, nor Shattered Remains, nor Power Grid Overload, nor Power Shutdown, nor Flare has an effect against Crash Space.

Yes, Crash Space has little effect against Midseason but Caparace has no effect against Midseason + Psychographics either.

So, Crash Space isn't a 100% protection but most of the time it's enough, and I accept this compromise.
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Allan Clements
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Apreche wrote:
Kamakaze wrote:
I use crash space, because I run Fall Guy and Decoy, and it works on the supplier to get it for free. Can also use it to remove tags from things like data raven, or from siphoning.

Not usually too worried about midseason, just have lots of money!
Ok, so how many crash space do you have? 2 or 3? I assume 3 fall guys. How many decoys?

That's a LOT of deck slots. Plascrete will protect you even better, and with only 3 slots letting you put in more econ and cards that actually WIN the game as opposed to cards that prevent you from losing the game.


I run 2 crash space, 3x Decoy, 3xFall Guy, and various other connections, with Calling in Favours. 1 calling in favours makes me break even easily.

I usually use Tri-Maf also so the decoy and fall guy are useful even if they don't have scorched. (not to mention decoy for protecting rachel beckman if I go that far )

I am just saying if you are running a resource heavy deck, in which resource protection helps, then crash space is much better than plascrete.

Plascrete is definitely the better option as the last few cards in a deck because you forgot about scorched earth
 
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Bradley Galbraith
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I feel like the Calling In Favours + Connection decks suffer because resources are naturally pretty slow to get out. Hostage costs two clicks, Supplier takes a turn to get the discount... Calling in Favours may be a good way to drop a ton of cash late game, but that's assuming you survive until the late game after spending a ton of clicks installing cards that don't get you in.

Have you ever posted the list here? I'm sort of interested to check it out if you're interested in sharing, and I'd love to be proven wrong.
 
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Captain Frisk
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Snipafist wrote:
hsiale wrote:
SEA Source - trash Crash Space (it's a resource) - SE


Correct, but so long as you have 5 cards in hand, Crash Space still saved you from a Scorched Earth kill because his first click is SEA Source and then either he double Scorches (brings you down to 0 cards, but still alive) or he trashes Crash Space and Scorches (brings you down to 1 card).


This is exactly what Thomas was referring to above. If you're willing to stay @ 5 - then crash space does just fine.

However, sometimes you might need to push a little to maintain pressure... if you're trying to protect against the "full combo" by maintaining a full grip, you might have to ease off the gas to ensure that you stay up there.

Plascrete lets you play more aggressive early & defend against a single scorch (maybe you're playing against NBN and you have to get that astroscript), and its early enough that you're willing to chance that they don't have double scorch yet.

It may depend on your meta. Scorch has been out of favor in mine for a while now, so crash space would be a good pick (for econ while clearing tags), but with the recent Wesurgance compliments of Blue Sun, I'm planning on putting plascrete back in.
 
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Ony Moose
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If you play with Paper Tripping, Fall Guy then Crash Space is pretty powerful.

That way it'll cost them 2 clicks and 4C to trash the crash space, and then you can use Paper Tripping to remove all the tags they gave you from MidSeasons, which really sets them back.

If you aren't playing a tag->Scorch deck, you can hit them with account siphon a lot, then clear the tags with Paper Tripping before they can get enough cash to trash your important resources, since with a Fall Guy out, they'll need Freelancer to do more than spend their whole turn trashing Fall Guy if you set them to 0/1 C with Account Siphon.

Plascrete works well by itself though, which is why it's often used.
 
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Another way that the runner can be killed through a Crash Space is score a Posted Bounty and forfeit for a tag, trash Crash Space, SE, SE.

It sounds like an unlikely combo, but back in core/genesis meta Posted Bounty was a pretty common card to get the tag'n'bag kill with.
 
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