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Subject: LEELA - Any thoughts yet? rss

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Stephen Parkes
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So...

As soon as my All That Remains turned up I grabbed a decklist from netrunnerdb.com and have managed a few plays with it so far. Won all but one game so far (which was against my mate who always runs Power Shutdown in his corp decks - I hate that card). Can't find the decklist now as the site seems to freak out when I click on 'decklists' at the top of the page.

I'm really interested in this ID and am probably going to stick with it for a while to see what happens. I still feel like a novice as far as Netrunner strategy goes in many senses but this is definitely an aggro-style ID, I think? The decklist I'm using has three Unscheduled Maintenance in it which, if out early enough, is great for pissing the corp off. And if you can pull an early agenda out of HQ/R&D and start dismantling their ice further, then all the better.

Deck also runs Crescentus, Kraken (though I've taken two copies out), Box-E etc.

How is everyone else getting on with her? Is she going to be a viable option going forwards?


(In other news, in my view Leela and Nasir are both really interesting IDs in how they force the corp to evaluate the game board in a compeltely different way to before. As the corp, single advancing an NAPD for example, then scoring it out next turn now leaves you far more vulnerable going into the runners turn. Nasir, on the other hand, just makes my brain melt because maths. )
 
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Kevin Smit
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My impression of her is that she can really take advantage of bad draws and high-variance early picks out of HQ and R&D, but she lacks the kind of late-game pressure that other runners have. If you love those Andromeda games where your first turn is Sure Gamble, Desperado, Datasucker, Dirty Laundry, and you forget all the rest of your games, Leela might be for you. You can absolutely blow the corp out with a bad draw/ good picks.
 
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Thomas Berton
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Leela is really interesting. Her biggest advantage is that if you run HQ right after the Corp has installed an agenda, and then grab an agenda from HQ, you can bounce the installed agenda into HQ and potentially grab it in the same run. It's really cool.

Unfortunately, the way OCTGN handles multiaccess on HQ does not allow for this ability, effectively crippling her.
 
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Peter Hopkins
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There has been some really good Leela chat over on Reddit. I've thrown together a deck with her in and had a couple of games, I *really* enjoy it. I think she's got the potential to be pretty strong.

General consensus seems to be running her with other cards that can pressure centrals (Account Siphon, obvs, Keyhole, Medium, Sneakdoor Beta), then maybe using Logos to find them. WHen you or the corp scores, you're ready for a full turn of applying pressure to a central server. This can sometimes snowball if you grab another agenda while doing this, leading to some seriously bad times for the corp.

The rest of the deck is usually standard criminal tricks, Siphons, Dirty Laundry, Inside Jobs, etc.

I personally don't run Unscheduled Maintenance or Cresentus with her at the moment, though I am packing 3 Emergency Shutdown (people are talking about Feint in combo with this, and as a great way to kill Crisium Grid). Happy to throw a decklist up here, but it's mainly just a tweaked version of one I saw over on Reddit!
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Stephen Parkes
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unitled wrote:
Happy to throw a decklist up here, but it's mainly just a tweaked version of one I saw over on Reddit!

Yeah, go on.

Logos (with plascrete) does seem to be the way over Box-E really. Logos also means added sting when the corp does score. Unscheduled Maintenance has been great for me so far. If you find it in your opening hand it's wonderful.
 
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Peter Hopkins
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This isn't actually the version I've been testing, I originally had an Imp in there. I took out Legworks for HQ Interface as I had Sneakdoor Beta in as well. Was originally going to run Hades Shard as I had Keyhole, but Utopia fits in really well. If your opponent is ever humming and hawwing about which cards to discard at the end of their turn, hit them with that. Also great if you suspect they're running a Midseason Deck to try and snipe it out of their hand.

Keyhole Leela (45 cards)

Leela Patel: Trained Pragmatist

Event (20)
3 Account Siphon
3 Dirty Laundry
3 Emergency Shutdown
2 Inside Job
1 Kraken
3 Special Order
3 Sure Gamble
2 Test Run ••••• •

Hardware (5)
1 HQ Interface
3 Logos
1 Plascrete Carapace

Resource (11)
3 Armitage Codebusting
2 Bank Job
2 Kati Jones
3 Same Old Thing
1 Utopia Shard

Icebreaker (7)
1 Alias
1 Corroder ••
3 Faerie
1 Femme Fatale
1 Gordian Blade •••

Program (2)
1 Keyhole •••
1 Sneakdoor Beta

Built with http://netrunner.meteor.com/
 
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Yoshi
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Interesting list.

A few questions, you are still running Gordian and it is the only decoder, would Passport + Rex not work very well? As mentioned in this thread, central pressure is important (Passport) and Rex adds the flexibility to be able to run remotes as well as redundance in case your other Decoder gets sniped.

This would also save some influence. Utopia Shard seems cool but did you throw it in to utilize the last influence or since it really does a lot of work? In case purely to max inf. then in combination with kicking Gordian you could get theat Parasite in there and soemting else nice?


I guess Test Run is great for recursion in case you do get sniped, but Test Run for Rex is also great.

Not saying my suggestions are better, just asking if you thought of this and chose not to go that way, now that criminals finally have a decent way of getting past Code Gates in faction.
 
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Peter Hopkins
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You're right, I wasn't previously running Gordion (actually, not a huge fan of it, I'd usually prefer Zu.13). I had a version with Rex and Passport, I'm still undecided and am swapping between them; I'm still experimenting with different rigs as I've not played criminal in earnest for a while. That 3 influence for Gordion was originally on an Imp as well, which might be worth looking at (I was previously a few cards over 45!).

I think the core of the deck is the one-off cards to pressure centrals, and then the always-good criminal events. You don't have to play Leela slow like Iain (who is actually punished for scoring early), and a lucky access can steamroll to a quick win. But she holds her own in the long game too, especially if the corp starts to chain together quick scores.

Utopia Shard I think is a good call, a great turn can look like 3 Keyholes, run on Archives, and firing a Utopia is a great way of potentially putting some nice stuff in there too. Also, against a careless corp, they can have a card bounced back to their hand and killed straight away if they've not saved the hand size. And finally, it's some protection against Midseason/Scorched, or SEA/SE/SE if you're thinking the corp might try that.
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Bradley Galbraith
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Last week I played Leela and had some really great matches. Getting Logos out before they score makes the game start to suck for the corp if they are including one point agendas. Leela is particularly effective against Jinteki for the aforementioned reason, but also since you can bounce back an unknown, partially advanced ambush/agenda.

I had a great moment where the corp had Lotus Field > Komainu on HQ, and I knew he had at least 1 Future Perfect in hand. I had 2 HQ Interface so I installed Sneakdoor, ran HQ through empty archives until he was broke from Psi games, then Emergency Shutdown'd the Ice on HQ (only rezzed stuff aside from Pups). Oddly enough, I chose to try out a no account siphon deck (using Zona Sul Shipping for economy) and I felt it worked really well. Since I'm not taking tags at all, I might check if a Rachel Beckman could squeeze in.
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Peter Hopkins
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PaxCecilia wrote:
Oddly enough, I chose to try out a no account siphon deck (using Zona Sul Shipping for economy) and I felt it worked really well. Since I'm not taking tags at all, I might check if a Rachel Beckman could squeeze in.


This sounds really interesting, I often end up floating tags from Siphon as I don't like the tempo loss that comes from clearing them. I know it's less common now, but Breaking News is still a worry, especially if I was running Rachel... Do you worry about that? How much do you normally leave on Zona Sul? Do you run Decoy to help mitigate this? I used to run three of those in Iain, which was fine as they helped with Calling In Favours!
 
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Bradley Galbraith
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Yeah, in one match I totally forgot about Breaking News and lost 3 of them. After that happened, I think I will remember to clear them more often against NBN. Against Jinteki though, I usually had 2 out and grabbed 3 or 4 credits off of one every two or three turns. The deck relies pretty heavily on The Supplier to get all of the utility cards out for cheaper.

One of my favourite includes is Indexing. A great play is to keep them a little broke by hammering HQ and remotes, but let them score an agenda. If you've got Logos out soon enough you can return the Ice in front of R&D to HQ, use Logos to grab an Indexing, then score any Agenda's in the top 5 cards. Here's the list. Definitely still need some refining, I found I was only ever sitting around 3-4 credits and Sure Gambles were hard to play from hand.

Leela & Logos

Leela Patel: Trained Pragmatist (All That Remains)

Event (11)
3x Emergency Shutdown (Cyber Exodus)
2x Indexing (Future Proof) ••••• •
2x Inside Job (Core Set)
1x Special Order (Core Set)
3x Sure Gamble (Core Set)

Hardware (9)
2x Akamatsu Mem Chip (Core Set) ••
2x HQ Interface (Humanity's Shadow)
3x Logos (Honor and Profit)
1x Plascrete Carapace (What Lies Ahead)
1x R&D Interface (Future Proof) ••

Resource (12)
3x Armitage Codebusting (Core Set)
2x Mr. Li (Future Proof)
3x The Supplier (First Contact)
1x Xanadu (Humanity's Shadow) ••
3x Zona Sul Shipping (All That Remains)

Icebreaker (9)
1x Alias (Honor and Profit)
1x Breach (Honor and Profit)
1x Cerberus "Rex" H2 (All That Remains)
1x Corroder (Core Set) ••
3x Faerie (Future Proof)
1x Femme Fatale (Core Set)
1x Passport (Honor and Profit)

Program (4)
3x Crescentus (A Study in Static)
1x Sneakdoor Beta (Core Set)

14 influence spent (max 15)
45 cards (min 45)
Cards up to All That Remains

Decklist published on NetrunnerDB.
 
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Steven Tu
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All I keep hearing from this thread is "Leela is great if you're winning, you can win more".

Win more cards aren't great because when you're winning, well, you're in much less need of help than, say, if you're NOT winning :/

Edit: Not that I don't like wacky and strange identities and cards, I tried the heck out of Fisk when he Fisk came around, with Lady in Red and etc, and it was fun, but it was clearly not "good" yet.

Anything that makes Leela actually *good* and not *hey if you win you can win more*?
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Peter Hopkins
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Tuism wrote:
All I keep hearing from this thread is "Leela is great if you're winning, you can win more".

Win more cards aren't great because when you're winning, well, you're in much less need of help than, say, if you're NOT winning :/

Edit: Not that I don't like wacky and strange identities and cards, I tried the heck out of Fisk when he Fisk came around, with Lady in Red and etc, and it was fun, but it was clearly not "good" yet.

Anything that makes Leela actually *good* and not *hey if you win you can win more*?


I must admit, it's early days with Leela. I remember being underwhelmed by her in print, and not seeing the potential strength until I sat down and played her.

Though her ability is partially 'win more' it's also 'catch up'. Scoring/stealing agendas are both things that happen pretty much every match, usually 3 - 5 times. Remember, of course, that if the *corp* scores her ability triggers, meaning the corp has to be sure they're prepared for their defenses weakening before they score. Even tougher if Leela has Logos out. Astrotraining is hit by this as well, as chaining together a couple of scores in quick succession can leave you wide open to a retaliatory Account Siphon or Keyhole onslaught.

Plus, unlike Iain and his weird ability, Leela has the full complement of 15 influence. At worst, you could run a 'standard' Criminal deck out of her and do okay, with her ability a bonus whenever it triggers.
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Bradley Galbraith
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Her ability triggers when the corp scores as well. Yes it helps you while you're winning (as you say, win-more), but it can also help prevent the corp from snowballing to victory. Add in Logos, and not only are you preventing the snowball, you're turning it around a bit by getting exactly what you need to abuse the fact that you just returned a card to their hand.

I was pretty skeptical at first blush too. Have you had a chance to play as or against her yet? It's surprising how disruptive returning things to the corps hand can be.

edit: aaaand that's why I should refresh a page before posting, rather than make the exact same points as someone else. *Shrug*
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Peter Hopkins
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PaxCecilia wrote:
Her ability triggers when the corp scores as well. Yes it helps you while you're winning (as you say, win-more), but it can also help prevent the corp from snowballing to victory. Add in Logos, and not only are you preventing the snowball, you're turning it around a bit by getting exactly what you need to abuse the fact that you just returned a card to their hand.

I was pretty skeptical at first blush too. Have you had a chance to play as or against her yet? It's surprising how disruptive returning things to the corps hand can be.

edit: aaaand that's why I should refresh a page before posting, rather than make the exact same points as someone else. *Shrug*


Hey, I see it as a vindication that we're both right if we managed to come to the exact same conclusion separately!

By the way, love the Xanadu splash in your Leela deck, I bet your opponents groan when they see that hitting the table! Alongside Leela, it seems pretty brutal.
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Zak Jarvis
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That would be a fair assessment if there was no temporal element to 'winningness', no ebb and flow of control.

As it is, you can hit the corp hard at the beginning but you will exhaust your resources and are unlikely to have scored the seven points for outright victory. So while you have been winning, now you are spent and the corp takes over.

Often, the runner spends resources to steal an agenda and thus allows a window for the corp to respond. Some corp players will even "feed" an 'NAPD Contract' to a runner to open a scoring window for the agenda they really want, for instance!

Leela's ability helps to remove that "bounce" for the corp, as well as punishing their own scores.

If you are winning (i.e. you have been winning previously), you need to win more else you'll eventually lose the game! It might be a mistake to think that the person who has got most agenda points to date is the one more likely to score the next ones.
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Michael Redston
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Tuism wrote:
Edit: Not that I don't like wacky and strange identities and cards, I tried the heck out of Fisk when he Fisk came around, with Lady in Red and etc, and it was fun, but it was clearly not "good" yet.

Have you tried going mill with him using DLR suite plus Eden Shard? Influnece could look something like:

3xData Leak Reversal
2xJoshua B.
1xScrubber
1xWoman in the Red Dress
1xEden Shard
 
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Steven Tu
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unitled wrote:
Tuism wrote:
All I keep hearing from this thread is "Leela is great if you're winning, you can win more".

Win more cards aren't great because when you're winning, well, you're in much less need of help than, say, if you're NOT winning :/

Edit: Not that I don't like wacky and strange identities and cards, I tried the heck out of Fisk when he Fisk came around, with Lady in Red and etc, and it was fun, but it was clearly not "good" yet.

Anything that makes Leela actually *good* and not *hey if you win you can win more*?


I must admit, it's early days with Leela. I remember being underwhelmed by her in print, and not seeing the potential strength until I sat down and played her.

Though her ability is partially 'win more' it's also 'catch up'. Scoring/stealing agendas are both things that happen pretty much every match, usually 3 - 5 times. Remember, of course, that if the *corp* scores her ability triggers, meaning the corp has to be sure they're prepared for their defenses weakening before they score. Even tougher if Leela has Logos out. Astrotraining is hit by this as well, as chaining together a couple of scores in quick succession can leave you wide open to a retaliatory Account Siphon or Keyhole onslaught.

Plus, unlike Iain and his weird ability, Leela has the full complement of 15 influence. At worst, you could run a 'standard' Criminal deck out of her and do okay, with her ability a bonus whenever it triggers.


Yeah I agree, and I know that the ability triggers on corp scores too, but whether that's "worth it" or not... Well, I dunno. The corp can also play it so that they don't have face-downs when they score. It is possible (though probably fringe). Giving the opponent the control over your ability, I feel, is what makes a lesser ability.

Of course yes, early days. Let's see What Lies Ahead

"Whenever a card enters the HQ not from R&D, do something"
 
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Steven Tu
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kroen wrote:
Tuism wrote:
Edit: Not that I don't like wacky and strange identities and cards, I tried the heck out of Fisk when he Fisk came around, with Lady in Red and etc, and it was fun, but it was clearly not "good" yet.

Have you tried going mill with him using DLR suite plus Eden Shard? Influnece could look something like:

3xData Leak Reversal
2xJoshua B.
1xScrubber
1xWoman in the Red Dress
1xEden Shard


I've seen DLR decks swinging wild, but it takes REALLY long to setup and practically auto-dies to any fast corp deck. So... No I haven't yet, but hey it's fun I'm sure
 
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Randall Barnes
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I've got one I've been working on. It's showing promise, but I'm not quite ready to put it out there yet. Suffice to say it works on what I think was an old Whizzard trick.
 
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Danwarr
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This is by no means T1 or anything. It's just a Leela deck that I've been playing recently and enjoying tremendously.

Leela Patel: Trained Pragmatist (All That Remains)

Event (20)
3x Account Siphon (Core Set)
2x Blackmail (Fear and Loathing)
2x Emergency Shutdown (Cyber Exodus)
2x Forged Activation Orders (Core Set)
1x Frame Job (Opening Moves) ••
1x Indexing (Future Proof) •••
2x Inside Job (Core Set)
2x Kraken (Humanity's Shadow)
2x Special Order (Core Set)
3x Sure Gamble (Core Set)

Hardware (5)
2x e3 Feedback Implants (Trace Amount)
3x Logos (Honor and Profit)

Resource (10)
2x Daily Casts (Creation and Control)
1x Hades Shard (First Contact)
2x Kati Jones (Humanity's Shadow)
2x Public Sympathy (Cyber Exodus)
3x Same Old Thing (Creation and Control)

Icebreaker (5)
1x Cerberus "Cuj.0" H3 (All That Remains) •••
1x Cerberus "Lady" H1 (All That Remains) •••
1x Cerberus "Rex" H2 (All That Remains)
1x Faerie (Future Proof)
1x Femme Fatale (Core Set)

Program (5)
3x Grappling Hook (Honor and Profit)
1x Keyhole (True Colors) •••
1x Sneakdoor Beta (Core Set)

15 influence spent (max 15)
45 cards (min 45)
Cards up to All That Remains

Deck built on NetrunnerDB.

So I've run this deck a few times and it's been pretty brutal just in terms of what it can do early and late. It's based off a similar Iain Stirling deck from the guys at FFG that went 25-0 in their league plus this other Leela deck from a reddit thread about a week ago.

Links here: http://netrunnerdb.com/en/decklist/11359/ffg-iain-strirling

http://netrunnerdb.com/en/decklist/11143/leela-patel-and-the...

The basic idea is you only really need to get 1 Agenda to fire off your Frame Job, then Blackmail to victory. However, if the Corp is slow and you can get either Keyhole runs or an Indexing run in early, Leela's ability can just be punishing. Additionally, if you get a pretty dead draw, just play Logos, build your Rig, and wait until the Corp scores. Bounce R&D ICE, grab Indexing, and go to town.

I initially had the CBS (Central Breaker Suite), but decided I wanted the versatility of the Dogs (Plus I just wanted to play a Dog Deck ).
 
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Stephen Parkes
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Tuism wrote:
Giving the opponent the control over your ability, I feel, is what makes a lesser ability.

This is what I think is really interesting about the latest slew of IDs, though I have a slightly different perspective on it to you.

Quetzal, The Foundry, Nasir, Blue Sun, Leela and the upcoming Jinteki ID (so, all of them bar bloody NEH) all give your opponent some chance to neuter your ability through a particular style of play. The question is, does this make it a lesser ability? If you're playing as Quetzal and the corp isn't putting any barriers out, although you're not able to use your ability per se, simply having that ability has influenced the corp's actions favourably. Maybe they choose not to put any barriers out at all, thereby leaving themselves with limited ice options and a handful of dead cards? That's an oversimplified view but I don't think that these things can necessarily be so easily qualified. Either your ability is firing and you're getting that benefit, OR, your opponent is having to adjust their play style to keep your ability in check. As long as you plan for both possibilities within your deck...
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Michael Redston
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As cool as the ID is, and even though I'm sure it can win reliably, I highly doubt it's tier 1 material, at least for the time being. Maybe if we got some awesome support cards... but that's a big maybe. It's sad that with 20 runner IDs only 5 are tier 1...

Kate
Chaos Theory
Gabe
Andy
Noise

3 of which are from core
 
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Steven Tu
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StarryVeck wrote:
Tuism wrote:
Giving the opponent the control over your ability, I feel, is what makes a lesser ability.

This is what I think is really interesting about the latest slew of IDs, though I have a slightly different perspective on it to you.

Quetzal, The Foundry, Nasir, Blue Sun, Leela and the upcoming Jinteki ID (so, all of them bar bloody NEH) all give your opponent some chance to neuter your ability through a particular style of play. The question is, does this make it a lesser ability? If you're playing as Quetzal and the corp isn't putting any barriers out, although you're not able to use your ability per se, simply having that ability has influenced the corp's actions favourably. Maybe they choose not to put any barriers out at all, thereby leaving themselves with limited ice options and a handful of dead cards? That's an oversimplified view but I don't think that these things can necessarily be so easily qualified. Either your ability is firing and you're getting that benefit, OR, your opponent is having to adjust their play style to keep your ability in check. As long as you plan for both possibilities within your deck...


Of course, I didn't say Quetzel sucks because if no barriers get dropped she's blank. The best way to fight Quetzel is to double barrier anyway since she can only break one sub a turn.

Whizzard gets blanked against most Weyland decks. Gabe is blanked if the deck guards HQ/archive especially tight in any case (just an example, I think this analogy fits RP, but it's not absolute), Edward Kim gets blanked if there're no operations to trash.

If the corp is prepared to bounce harmless stuff when he scores, then Leela's not as effective. If Leela can take advantage of the tempo hit (with the opportunity cost of not having the other abilities that she could have had - Gabe creds, Andy's start, etc) EVEN when the corp is bouncing harmless stuff, cool.

If not, then you've got an ability in the control of the opponent's hand.
 
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Captain Frisk
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kroen wrote:
As cool as the ID is, and even though I'm sure it can win reliably, I highly doubt it's tier 1 material, at least for the time being. Maybe if we got some awesome support cards... but that's a big maybe. It's sad that with 20 runner IDs only 5 are tier 1...

Kate
Chaos Theory
Gabe
Andy
Noise

3 of which are from core


If you're going to rank 20 identities into tiers, how many tiers are you grouping them into? How many do you expect to have in each tier?

5 "tier 1" out of 20 seems pretty reasonable to me if you're looking at other tier lists out of video games.

http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2014/may/05/updated-ultra-stre...

http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Mortal_Kombat_9/Strategy/Tier_List

http://www.dotabuff.com/blog/2014-10-06-pub-tier-list-682b

http://www.doaworld.com/forums/index.php?/topic/5066-the-off...


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