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Subject: Max dice rolls for multiple plasma missiles rss

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Hoosier Life
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I guess there are a few questions here.

1. Can I add multiple sets of plasma missiles to a dreadnought?

2. If so, how many? If I added 3, would I roll 6 dice for each ship?

3. What if I had 1 plasma missile on 8 interceptors?

What do you do when you don't have enough dice? Especially when you're supposed to roll for all ships of one type at a time?
 
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Steve
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There is no max dice limit. The quantities of dice included in the box are for reasons of practicality only.

1 yes
2 as many as you like, yes 6 dice
3 8 dice. Correction - 16 dice.
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Łukasz Madaj
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Steve is right, except that simple mistake:

slashing wrote:

3 8 dice.


it's 16 dice.

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Steve
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Lucto wrote:
Steve is right, except that simple mistake:

slashing wrote:

3 8 dice.


it's 16 dice.


Quite right - too early in the morning!
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Nate Reynolds
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we either handle that by disregarding the color and rolling all the dice you need or if that isn't enough roll one handful, make note of the damage then roll the next handful if necessary.
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Hoosier Life
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Thanks! We played our first full game last night, it was wild. I played as Draco. At the end of the game, I was able to destroy my brothers, much stronger ships, into oblivion with the plasma missiles. I won with 41 VP. Second place had 40 lol.
 
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Locke Balenska
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Tretiak wrote:
Has anyone actually tried and fill his ships with Improved Hull to resist a Missile attack?


Absolutely. I've done something like this many times:

2xDreadnaught + 2xInterceptor (attacker) vs 2xStarbase + 1xCruiser (defender)

Dreadnaughts:
--Plasma Cannon
--5xImproved Hull
--Fusion Source
--Fusion Drive

Interceptors:
--Ion cannon
--Improved Hull
--Nuclear Source
--Fusion Drive

Cruiser:
--2xPlasma Missile
--2xPositron Computer
--Nuclear Source
--Nuclear Drive

Starbases:
--3xPlasma Missile
--2xPositron Computer


So the defender is firing 16 missiles and needs ALL of them to hit in order to destroy my ships. Even if just one interceptor gets through all his ships are destroyed. But his odds of getting 16 hits are terrible. He may not even get 12 hits and one of my dreadnaughts survives.

That's the kind of strategy that works well if I have lots of materials so I can just throw tons of armored ships at the plasma-missile-toting player. If I have less materials but more tech I would modify that to research and use phase shields instead so my ships have better survivability.

If I am really strapped for materials (and presumably I have lots of research instead) then this is a bad approach and I'm probably better off grabbing missiles + Gluon computers and out-missiling him myself, or getting wormhole generator and going around his missile starbases, or some other tech-based low-material alternative
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Peter Bakija
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Tretiak wrote:
Has anyone actually tried and fill his ships with Improved Hull to resist a Missile attack?


Sure. It can sort of work in the right circumstances, if you have enough ships to absorb all the damage coming your way. But 'cause each Plasma Missile launches 2 missiles, each of which can neutralize a single improved hull (although they are unlikely to all hit), it is a losing fight in an even ship-ship match up. For example:

-Plasma Missile Dreadnaught: 5xPlasma Missile, +3 computer, engine, power source.

vs

-Improved Hull Dreadnaught: 5xImproved Hull, cannon of some sort, engine, power source.

The Hull dreadnaught takes 11 damage to kill (i.e. 6 plasma missile hits). The Plasma Missile dreadnaught is going to, on average, hit with (10x.666=) 7 missiles. So on average, the Missile Dreadnaught kills the Hull dreadnaught before it fires. I mean, yeah, the missile dreadnaught can get unlucky. Or only have a +2 computer. Which pushes the Hull dreadnaught in a winning direction (although a 4x Plasma Missile, 2x+2 computer, engine, power source is also a winner in this situation, as 8 missiles x.83 is still 6+ hits). And if the Plasma Missile dreadnaught doesn't kill the Hull dreadnaught, the Plasma Missile dreadnaught has a reasonable chance of escaping/retreating (as the Hull dreadnaught still only hits back on a 6 due to no computer. You could get a computer in there, sure, but then the Missile dreadnaught is killing it more often).
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Peter Bakija
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skir wrote:
Absolutely. I've done something like this many times:

2xDreadnaught + 2xInterceptor (attacker) vs 2xStarbase + 1xCruiser (defender)


Sure. But you are comparing an expensive, significant fleet (2x dreadnaught and 2x interceptors, which cost 22 materials to build) to a small, weak force (2x starbase and 1x cruiser cost 11 materials to build) that costs half as much.

If you compare the same force to an equivalent force (say, 4x starbase and 2x cruiser for the same 22 materials), the starbases and cruisers have a total of 32 missiles, of which 26+ hit on average. Which is going to vaporize the incoming dreadnaughts and interceptors. Easily.

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Hoosier Life
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bakija wrote:
Tretiak wrote:
Has anyone actually tried and fill his ships with Improved Hull to resist a Missile attack?


Sure. It can sort of work in the right circumstances, if you have enough ships to absorb all the damage coming your way. But 'cause each Plasma Missile launches 2 missiles, each of which can neutralize a single improved hull (although they are unlikely to all hit), it is a losing fight in an even ship-ship match up. For example:

-Plasma Missile Dreadnaught: 5xPlasma Missile, +3 computer, engine, power source.

vs

-Improved Hull Dreadnaught: 5xImproved Hull, cannon of some sort, engine, power source.

The Hull dreadnaught takes 11 damage to kill (i.e. 6 plasma missile hits). The Plasma Missile dreadnaught is going to, on average, hit with (10x.666=) 7 missiles. So on average, the Missile Dreadnaught kills the Hull dreadnaught before it fires. I mean, yeah, the missile dreadnaught can get unlucky. Or only have a +2 computer. Which pushes the Hull dreadnaught in a winning direction (although a 4x Plasma Missile, 2x+2 computer, engine, power source is also a winner in this situation, as 8 missiles x.83 is still 6+ hits). And if the Plasma Missile dreadnaught doesn't kill the Hull dreadnaught, the Plasma Missile dreadnaught has a reasonable chance of escaping/retreating (as the Hull dreadnaught still only hits back on a 6 due to no computer. You could get a computer in there, sure, but then the Missile dreadnaught is killing it more often).


Oh we totally forgot about retreating lol. Whenever my plasma interceptors didn't win, we'd just kill them all off because they had no chance of firing anymore.

Can somebody better explain retreating? How does initiative affect it? How does it affect being involved ina battle and receiving the reputation tiles with VPs on it?
 
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Philip Morton
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HoosierLife wrote:
Can somebody better explain retreating? How does initiative affect it? How does it affect being involved ina battle and receiving the reputation tiles with VPs on it?

From memory:
When it is a ship class's turn to act, instead of firing, it can declare a retreat through a wormhole to a location with your disc and no enemy ships. They do not retreat immediately. After declaring a retreat, the next time those ships would act, assuming any of them surive, they move out--this effectively means the opponent gets a free round to fire before your ships can actually escape. If your last ships in a battle retreat, you lose the guaranteed 1x reputation tile draw for participation (but you can still get draws for having killed ships). There were some details about what counts as "your last ships" retreating--if they're attempting to retreat but get blown up first, you still lose the draw; I think you also lose the draw if you attempt to retreat one ship class and your remaining ships of different classes get blown up before your ships actually retreat.

So if your missile-only ships fail to kill the enemy fleet, and it has cannons, and you have a clear place you can retreat to, the opposing ships will get one or two rounds (depending on initiative) to take shots at you before you get away.
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Locke Balenska
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bakija wrote:
skir wrote:
Absolutely. I've done something like this many times:

2xDreadnaught + 2xInterceptor (attacker) vs 2xStarbase + 1xCruiser (defender)


Sure. But you are comparing an expensive, significant fleet (2x dreadnaught and 2x interceptors, which cost 22 materials to build) to a small, weak force (2x starbase and 1x cruiser cost 11 materials to build) that costs half as much.

If you compare the same force to an equivalent force (say, 4x starbase and 2x cruiser for the same 22 materials), the starbases and cruisers have a total of 32 missiles, of which 26+ hit on average. Which is going to vaporize the incoming dreadnaughts and interceptors. Easily.



They are not equivalent technologically. In my example, the defender had few materials but lots of research, so they didn't have a lot of ships but could afford Plasma Missiles and Positron Computer. The attacker had a lot of materials but low research, so they could field many ships but with only low-level techs like Improved Hull and the Fusions (I put Plasma Cannon on the dreads, but it really doesn't matter).

If the attacker did not have tons of materials and had more research instead, then a different strategy would be more optimal.

I think I made that pretty clear in the paragraphs following the example ship blueprint layouts.
 
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Peter Bakija
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skir wrote:
I think I made that pretty clear in the paragraphs following the example ship blueprint layouts.


Well, yes. But still, your example was, essentially:

"Look! Here is a great way to beat missile ships! It involves having twice as many ships (materials/whatever) as your opponent!"

Which isn't really a compelling argument for convincing someone that it is a good way to deal with the issue at hand.

When comparing Improved Hull to Plasma Missiles (as was the initial question at hand), Plasma Missiles pretty much always come out ahead, on a space per space basis, assuming reasonably well put together ship. If the missiles can be relied on to hit a little more than half the time, each Plasma Missile space will neutralize an Improved Hull, and then the little more than half the time will kill the rest of the ship.

I mean, yeah, if you have a ton more materials than your opponent, you can beat them in space fights, but that isn't really the result of good ships design. That is the result of just having more ships.

But looking at the ships you present (which are totally reasonable designs), on a material for material (ship for ship/whatever) basis, the Missile ships are going to win. Which isn't a great defense in support of "You can fill up ships with Improved Hull to beat Missile ships". As in an even fight, the Improved Hull ships lose.
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