Bryce K. Nielsen
United States
Elk Ridge
Utah
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
So Grit can be used to reroll pretty much any dice you just rolled, with the exception of the Hold Back The Darkness roll. Does that include Monster attack dice? And since you're not supposed to roll for the monsters attacking you (as "that would be bad form"), if you can spend grit, which hero spends it? The one who was chosen to roll for the hero? The targeted hero?

-shnar
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Klutz
Canada
Quebec
flag msg tools
I am a "certified" art critic.
badge
I am a professional BGG commenter.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb


Thematically, I find using grit to re-roll enemy rolls is ridiculous.

Here are my thoughts on the subject:
KevBelisle wrote:
Can you use grit to re-roll enemy attacks?

From the rulebook (emphasis mine):
Rulebook, page 7 wrote:
Every Hero has Grit (they wouldn’t be much of
a Hero without it).
A Hero may use a Grit to do one of three things:
- Use 1 Grit to Re-roll any number of dice that you just rolled.
- Use 1 Grit to add an extra D6 to your Movement.
- Use Grit to activate a Special Ability or Item that requires it.


Rulebook, page 24 wrote:
Combat is the number of dice the Hero gets to roll when making a Melee Attack.
[...]
Shots is the number of dice the Hero gets to roll for a Ranged Attack made with that Weapon.


Rulebook, page 27 wrote:
Each Enemy rolls a number of dice equal to their Combat value against the Hero it is targeting. [...]

Note that as the game itself is playing the Enemies, it is up to other players to actually roll the dice for the Enemies’ Attacks. A player should not roll the Enemy Attacks on their own Hero (that would be bad form). Instead, one of the other players should roll the dice for the Enemy Attacks against you.



In the quote about the use of grit, who is "you" referring to? Considering the preceding sentences, I'd say that it refers to the hero. (Seems to make thematic sens as well.)

When a hero attacks, according to the rules, he is the one rolling the dice. Therefore, he can use grit to re-roll these. Of course, even if it's not mentioned in the rules, a player will actually, physically, be rolling the dice.

When an enemy attacks, the rules say that the enemy rolls the dice, but then goes to say that a player will physically have to roll them (duh.)

My conclusion would therefore be that you (the player) cannot spend a heroe's grit to re-roll an enemy's attack!



See this thread which attempts to list all rolls and whether grit can/can't be used:
When is a player rolling in the capacity of the game [G], and when is a player rolling in the capacity of "you" the hero [H]?

In particular this response by a play tester:
Re: When is a player rolling in the capacity of the game [G], and when is a player rolling in the capacity of "you" the hero [H]?

5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryce K. Nielsen
United States
Elk Ridge
Utah
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't understand why this would be a thematic issue? It's just the hero being more difficult to hit?

But by RAW, technically couldn't the player who rolled for the monster spend a grit to reroll? (though *that* would be a stretch of the grit-imagination).

-shnar
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darryl Gardner
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
"Here, you roll the dice for the monsters this time because your hero has grit."

What does that hero's grit have to do with the monster attacking? If grit was intended to be used as a full party benefit at any time, grit would be a party asset, not an individual hero asset.

Heroes have grit. Not players.

Though at the end of the day, it's your game and you can play it however you wish.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
kell zilla
United States
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
You can grit stuff that your hero does. (e.g. hits/damage, having a good travel day, mutating, etc.)

Monsters attacking is not something that your hero does.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Angelus Seniores
Belgium
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
even if allowed to reroll the monster to hit dice with grit, it makes less sense since given the defense roll and armor rolls that still need to be performed.
rerolling the failed last roll gives you more chance to avoid damage overall
only if you have grit to spare to reroll all these rolls would it be useful
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Klutz
Canada
Quebec
flag msg tools
I am a "certified" art critic.
badge
I am a professional BGG commenter.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
shnar wrote:
I don't understand why this would be a thematic issue? It's just the hero being more difficult to hit?


The Hero being more difficult to hit is the Hero's defense roll, not the enemy's To Hit roll.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Canning
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
Stand By, Ready
badge
Wolkenritter
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
shnar wrote:
I don't understand why this would be a thematic issue? It's just the hero being more difficult to hit?


There is an ability on the Serpent Skin Gloves that adds the ability to reroll adjacent monsters attacks with grit.

Which sort of says it can't be done otherwise.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Paul Sodusta
United States
Santa Barbara
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
KevBelisle wrote:
shnar wrote:
I don't understand why this would be a thematic issue? It's just the hero being more difficult to hit?


The Hero being more difficult to hit is the Hero's defense roll, not the enemy's To Hit roll.


Per the rules and thematically, Grit represents each Hero's ability to perform heroic actions. Saving someone for gauranteed death. Clairvoyantly picking the safe travel route. My rule in using Grit (in addition to what the rulebook says) is that whoever is using Grit must describe the heroic feat as to why the die was re-rolled.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jee Fu
United States
Maryland
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
KevBelisle wrote:
shnar wrote:
I don't understand why this would be a thematic issue? It's just the hero being more difficult to hit?


The Hero being more difficult to hit is the Hero's defense roll, not the enemy's To Hit roll.

Yeah - all the unofficial stuff we've gotten on Grit seems to agree with this at least.

But meh, if your players are the kind who like to min-max their dudes' effectiveness against a consistent challenge, then I find that Grit is sorta broken right now. So do what you like. If you find its getting too easy, I recommend taking out the ability to Grit chart rolls of any kind.

- Jee
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryce K. Nielsen
United States
Elk Ridge
Utah
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
We never seem to have enough grit to consider it broken...

-shnar
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jee Fu
United States
Maryland
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
shnar wrote:
We never seem to have enough grit to consider it broken...

-shnar

I wish we had this problem. The Hero talents that give you Grit when you kill stuff or take damage, the items/mechanics that give you Grit on movement rolls of things other than 1 or for passing tests, and the existence of tonic had basically given us the ability to re-roll almost any unfortunate turn of events. We turned off Grit-rolling on charts to keep things interesting while maintaining the idea that Grit is something that affects things your Hero does, rather than things that simply happen to him/her.

As an example, My wife's Level 5 Gunslinger has a max-grit of 5 and stocks up to 6 tonics (w/ +1 bag slot upgrade) per mission. She gets Grit on a movement roll of a 1 or a 6 (Crisp Rose). And she uses Cool-Hand to recover Grit on final Fight Turns that will obviously end before low Inits go (via Catch Your Breath). It's a pretty awesome build, esp with Reload and Hellfire Shots, but we found that she was basically unstoppable if she was allowed to Grit her way out of chart-whammies.

That's just one example. We had a few others with similar issues, and in general just found that the game couldn't keep up with our First-Turn combat effectiveness unless there was something sapping our strength from a different angle. It also made items/abilities that had anything to do with Grit much more preferable, and those with defensive boosts pretty undesirable. We made that small adjustment concerning chart rolls and ... it just all clicked; I dunno it was like magic. Suddenly the challenge was semi-normal again, and non-Grit items/builds were more on-par relative to their Grit-based cousins.

- Jee
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryce K. Nielsen
United States
Elk Ridge
Utah
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Our problem might be that we're all still level 1

-shnar
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jee Fu
United States
Maryland
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
shnar wrote:
Our problem might be that we're all still level 1

-shnar

Ah yes! I've never had a game at Level 1 that wasn't challenging. It's still my favorite way to play.

- Jee
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Paul Sodusta
United States
Santa Barbara
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Inspector Jee wrote:
shnar wrote:
We never seem to have enough grit to consider it broken...

-shnar

I wish we had this problem. The Hero talents that give you Grit when you kill stuff or take damage, the items/mechanics that give you Grit on movement rolls of things other than 1 or for passing tests, and the existence of tonic had basically given us the ability to re-roll almost any unfortunate turn of events. We turned off Grit-rolling on charts to keep things interesting while maintaining the idea that Grit is something that affects things your Hero does, rather than things that simply happen to him/her.

As an example, My wife's Level 5 Gunslinger has a max-grit of 5 and stocks up to 6 tonics (w/ +1 bag slot upgrade) per mission. She gets Grit on a movement roll of a 1 or a 6 (Crisp Rose). And she uses Cool-Hand to recover Grit on final Fight Turns that will obviously end before low Inits go (via Catch Your Breath). It's a pretty awesome build, esp with Reload and Hellfire Shots, but we found that she was basically unstoppable if she was allowed to Grit her way out of chart-whammies.

That's just one example. We had a few others with similar issues, and in general just found that the game couldn't keep up with our First-Turn combat effectiveness unless there was something sapping our strength from a different angle. It also made items/abilities that had anything to do with Grit much more preferable, and those with defensive boosts pretty undesirable. We made that small adjustment concerning chart rolls and ... it just all clicked; I dunno it was like magic. Suddenly the challenge was semi-normal again, and non-Grit items/builds were more on-par relative to their Grit-based cousins.

- Jee


Given that you have much higher level heroes than I ever played with, I'll defer to your experience. Our highest hero, so far is lvl 2 because we keep restarting playing different groups of people. I am also looking for the same thing as you "a consistent challenging game".

So what is your house rule for Grit usage for re-rolls? Just not allowed for charts?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jee Fu
United States
Maryland
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Barkam wrote:
Inspector Jee wrote:
shnar wrote:
We never seem to have enough grit to consider it broken...

-shnar

I wish we had this problem. The Hero talents that give you Grit when you kill stuff or take damage, the items/mechanics that give you Grit on movement rolls of things other than 1 or for passing tests, and the existence of tonic had basically given us the ability to re-roll almost any unfortunate turn of events. We turned off Grit-rolling on charts to keep things interesting while maintaining the idea that Grit is something that affects things your Hero does, rather than things that simply happen to him/her.

As an example, My wife's Level 5 Gunslinger has a max-grit of 5 and stocks up to 6 tonics (w/ +1 bag slot upgrade) per mission. She gets Grit on a movement roll of a 1 or a 6 (Crisp Rose). And she uses Cool-Hand to recover Grit on final Fight Turns that will obviously end before low Inits go (via Catch Your Breath). It's a pretty awesome build, esp with Reload and Hellfire Shots, but we found that she was basically unstoppable if she was allowed to Grit her way out of chart-whammies.

That's just one example. We had a few others with similar issues, and in general just found that the game couldn't keep up with our First-Turn combat effectiveness unless there was something sapping our strength from a different angle. It also made items/abilities that had anything to do with Grit much more preferable, and those with defensive boosts pretty undesirable. We made that small adjustment concerning chart rolls and ... it just all clicked; I dunno it was like magic. Suddenly the challenge was semi-normal again, and non-Grit items/builds were more on-par relative to their Grit-based cousins.

- Jee


Given that you have much higher level heroes than I ever played with, I'll defer to your experience. Our highest hero, so far is lvl 2 because we keep restarting playing different groups of people. I am also looking for the same thing as you "a consistent challenging game".

So what is your house rule for Grit usage for re-rolls? Just not allowed for charts?

Or things your Hero isn't the active source of - that's the long and short of it, yeah. I posted a more codified version here:

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1292086/codifying-grit-rule...

- Jee
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Nelson
msg tools
I've played it that you can't use Grit on the monsters' attack rolls, but can use Grit on your defense rolls in response to their hits. Seems to have been a reasonable compromise that fits thematically.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.