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Clash of Cultures: Civilizations» Forums » Rules

Subject: Can Bleda move a non happy city? rss

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Japhet
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Huns have "happy size 1 cities may activate to move" Bleda's city "acts as happy on its first activation." Can Bleda move his non-happy city?
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Jonathan Challis
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Can't see why not...
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Japhet
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Reading it explicitly, a non-happy city does not qualify for moving. Bleda doesn't change the mood to happy. He just makes it act as if it was happy upon activating it (so you can build +1, collect +1, and increase size in angry cities).
 
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Gandalf the Greyjoy
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jaafit wrote:
Reading it explicitly, a non-happy city does not qualify for moving. Bleda doesn't change the mood to happy. He just makes it act as if it was happy upon activating it (so you can build +1, collect +1, and increase size in angry cities).

...and move. Why not move?

Huns activate a city. Bleda makes city act as happy. The city can now do happy city stuff. The city moves. What's wrong with that?
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Japhet
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The action is not an "activate city" action. It's a "move" action in which qualified cities may move.

Nomads: "If happy, then activate&move"
Bleda: "If activated, then happy"

It's clear that Bleda can activate a non-happy city to do happy things because any city can be activated. But Nomads logically excludes non-happy cities from activating/moving.

Soosy (a tester) thumbed up Libero03 and Kelanen's posts which is close enough to the logic override that I was looking for. I consider the matter settled.
 
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Jonathan Challis
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FWIW I'm also a tester, but didn't test this expansion, so don't take my word as gospel on Civilisations. I do have a pretty good handle on what Christian and the other testers (who all submit ideas) intend...
 
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alan beaumont
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jaafit wrote:
The action is not an "activate city" action. It's a "move" action in which qualified cities may move.
That sounds like sophistry to me. The order surely goes 'I activate this city' in which case Bleda's special ability kicks in, then you choose the kind of activation you want, which for Huns is an exceptional one.

An official ruling is needed, not inferred hearsay from play testers who may, or may not, have specifically addressed this issue in their games.

Case still open.
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M.C.Crispy
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I am always wrong (seriously, check my history) and I also believe that it's Activate City, trigger Effects caused by Activation, perform Actions permitted by Activation. (Which is the long way around saying "yes" to the OP).

Though actually, the answer is "no, he cannot move his non-happy city", but then it's not a non-happy city - due to the effect of the Leader.
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George
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I don't remember if this came up in particular, so you may want Christian's word on it. But FWIW I'm sure any activation must work with Bleda. Nomads is not meant to read as "if happy, then you have the option to activate" but just "the city activates when you do this". I can see how it can be subtly read that way, but hopefully it would be a lot more explicit if that was the intention.
 
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Christian Andreassen
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misteralan wrote:

An official ruling is needed, not inferred hearsay from play testers who may, or may not, have specifically addressed this issue in their games.


Soosy (and myself and several others as noted under Game Testers (not Additional Testing) in the booklet) did more than just play the game to test it you know, so we have a lot of insight into intention and ideas behind stuff. We've come up with several suggestions and stuff ourselves even, although Christian M always has the final say on everything. Thus I wouldn't really call it hearsay when soosy comments on a rules issue from the expansion, and only in very rare cases would he be wrong. This is not one of those cases even if he doesn't recall this question being asked specifically in our discussions.

Leader abilities are meant in several ways to interact with and even synergize with those of their civilization. In the case of Bleda, that ability was meant to synergize with the nomads one. Note that Bleda refers to any activation, not the Activate City action.
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alan beaumont
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Thanks.... perhaps
cruhand wrote:
misteralan wrote:

An official ruling is needed, not inferred hearsay from play testers who may, or may not, have specifically addressed this issue in their games.


Soosy (and myself and several others as noted under Game Testers (not Additional Testing) in the booklet) did more than just play the game to test it you know, so we have a lot of insight into intention and ideas behind stuff. We've come up with several suggestions and stuff ourselves even, although Christian M always has the final say on everything. Thus I wouldn't really call it hearsay when soosy comments on a rules issue from the expansion, and only in very rare cases would he be wrong. This is not one of those cases even if he doesn't recall this question being asked specifically in our discussions.

Leader abilities are meant in several ways to interact with and even synergize with those of their civilization. In the case of Bleda, that ability was meant to synergize with the nomads one. Note that Bleda refers to any activation, not the Activate City action.

That's very nice, but it isn't what the BLEDA card says: 'Zerko - His city acts as "Happy" on its first activation, regardless of mood.'

That's a specific reference to city activation and it introduces an ambivalence, because of the issue of 'Move Units' not being a city activation. Here activation is a consequence of moving.

You are (I think) agreeing with me that an angry/neutral city is good to move with Bleda present, so long as it hasn't yet been activated, but it isn't at all clear from the rules as printed.

It would still be better to have a ruling.
 
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Christian Andreassen
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There are a lot of things refering to activating a city, without it being specifically the "Activate City" action type. If it was referring to the "Activate City" action type it would, the same way it does when referring to other action types have these "" around it. The card text on Bleda refers to anything that activates the city, such as action cards, or if for instance you play the variant game with What If leaders, if the civilization has an ability that requires activation (or even if you played with a homebrew variant where you could use more than one leader and so forth).

The text on the card does not refer to the "Activate City" action type, you just interpret it to do so. There is nothing in his text, or that of the Nomads that suggests that he can't use the ability on Nomads. Nomads refer to the action "Move", and activates the city in order to do the "Move". Bleda's ability does not refer to any action at all, but just the function of activating it. It disregards mood when doing so.

So yes, an 'Angry' city may move with Bleda, as long as it is the first activation that city does on this turn. It doesn't become happy, it acts as if it ALREADY IS, so there is no timing issue either.

--

You edited something after I started typing, so I added this as an edit:

I think the issue is that you think the activation from Nomads happens after you say you "Move" it, but it is the other way around. You activate it to be able to "Move" it.
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Tamas Szabadi
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For me, "happy size 1 cities may activate to move" means that I have to activate the city to move. And if I'm activating the city, then Bleda's feature kicks in as it "acts as happy on its first activation.".

So I am playing it as it could move at the first activation until the official answer.
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