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Mykerinos» Forums » Strategy

Subject: "Going first" rule rss

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Derek H
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I would like the opinion of anyone who has played the multi-player (3 or 4) game a few times.

Do you feel that having the same person go first each time is an advantage? A disadvantage? Should turn order in the second, third and fourth rounds not, perhaps, be linked to passing order in the previous rounds??
 
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Maarten D. de Jong
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It is linked to the passing order: the person to pass last becomes the first player in the next round. Methinks you've been tripped up by the Rules Devil, he's a sneaky bugger, ain't he... devil
 
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B. Huddleston
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It's true, at the end of a season, the player to pass last, goes first the next season (it's in the rules).
 
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J C Lawrence
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Due to a rules confusion we've been playing that the start player on each turn is the first to pass, and that player order is the order of passing, not simple clockwise. This works well and seems to add value to the decision of not only when to pass (cube conservation, tie breakers, etc), but when to pass in relation to the other players (do you go earlier or later than Bob in the next season). I doubt we'll ever play by the proper rules now.
 
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David McLeod
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Yup, it makes a HUGE difference if the same player places first each round. As said, last player who passes goes first in the new season.

 
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J C Lawrence
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Axelfudge wrote:
Yup, it makes a HUGE difference if the same player places first each round. As said, last player who passes goes first in the new season.


This has not happened for us (player order and who-is-first changes frequently in our games) and I find the variant above more interesting, especially because the player order isn't fixed but is a product of game decisions. I will however try making the turn order simply be the reverse order of passing. It creates a different set of values for cube holding and should be interesting
 
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Maarten D. de Jong
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I confess I fail to see the need for such a variant. The game is already pretty tight with its 4 rounds (one of which without cards, and one with a playing area which is 50% bigger), and forces plenty of hard decisions on the players. Adding another layer of interplayer conflicts (namely who gets to play when) doesn't seem like it's going to give a whole lot extra.
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David McLeod
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Hey, if it works (your variant) it works but I think this game (as said) is pritty tight. I'm not into making the game too complex as I don't play with a lot of gamers and if we don't go clockwise from the last player to pass there is no doubt we will screw up the turn order and ruin the game. (I HATE putting asterisks next to scores because we screwed up!!!) yuk
 
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J C Lawrence
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cymric wrote:
I confess I fail to see the need for such a variant. The game is already pretty tight with its 4 rounds (one of which without cards, and one with a playing area which is 50% bigger), and forces plenty of hard decisions on the players.


My core reasoning is that the variant removes an arbitrary and pointless constraint on the game. It isn't that there is a lack of decisions, rather that there is an area which is arbitrary, whose arbitrariness noticeably affects the game, and that this effectively random factor can be removed cheaply/easily. As such the feeling mostly, "Why not?" It seems so obvious that the game is setup for variable turn order but that it was cut off at the last minute in order to make it more family friendly. Ptui!

Quote:
Adding another layer of interplayer conflicts (namely who gets to play when) doesn't seem like it's going to give a whole lot extra.


A similar view suggests dealing out all the tableaus before the game and allow the players to review them during play so that they know what is coming up when. For other reasons I'd like to try that variant, but currently don't expect to standardise on it as (for me) it moves the decision focus away from what I find the more interesting aspects.

 
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Maarten D. de Jong
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clearclaw wrote:
As such the feeling mostly, "Why not?" It seems so obvious that the game is setup for variable turn order but that it was cut off at the last minute in order to make it more family friendly. Ptui!

Mykerinos does not strike me as being designed with 'family' in mind: it's way too much of a puzzle for that. No, I was thinking along different lines, namely that I'm not really sure what effect variable player order has on the power of the patrons, especially Tangerine and Black. With these, people can 'skip ahead' (or at least 'catch up') in the majority race and thus pass earlier than others. In other words, it would appear as if there is already a mechanism in place to deal with unfavourable playing order, albeit one which is somewhat hidden and not readily apparent.

clearclaw wrote:
A similar view suggests dealing out all the tableaus before the game and allow the players to review them during play so that they know what is coming up when. For other reasons I'd like to try that variant, but currently don't expect to standardise on it as (for me) it moves the decision focus away from what I find the more interesting aspects.

I noticed you suggesting this in another thread, and somehow I'm not surprised you would make such a suggestion . Perhaps if you play in groups who can still play quickly under those circumstances---I already have sufficient trouble getting people to make a move within a few moments with just the playing area visible. On the other hand, I like an element of surprise and not knowing what will come up: for me it keeps such games fresh and lively. (Likewise I will not ever play Tikal according to the auction rules, for example.) But to each his own, of course.
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Karis Shem
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clearclaw wrote:

As such the feeling mostly, "Why not?" It seems so obvious that the game is setup for variable turn order but that it was cut off at the last minute in order to make it more family friendly. Ptui!


Not at all, you've got too much imagination

Regards,
Cyril
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david funch
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Quote:
Due to a rules confusion we've been playing that the start player on each turn is the first to pass, and that player order is the order of passing, not simple clockwise.


If you don't want to play "simple clockwise", that's fine, but I strongly recommend reversing your turn order. I think that having the last to pass go first the next round is important to game balance. Going last is clearly better than having to place first. So if you keep turn order the same as passing order, it's much easier for the player that already went last to go last again. Simply because the other players go before him and although all players will use up cubes at roughly the same rate, the other players start using up their cubes before the last player and are thus more likely to finish first too.

If the other players want to break out of that turn order cycle they have to spend more cubes than the last player does. Cubes they should be saving up for the last turn.

In the end, it all amounts to unfair advantage to the player going last. Not because going last is best (which it is) but because it's easier for the last player to keep that advantage. So make sure your last to pass is your first to place a cube the next turn.
 
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Alain Renaud
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Quote:
Not because going last is best (which it is)


In a 4-player game where everything is jammed, it's good to pass first, to win some equality... and it's good to place first also. So you can be the first to take control of the important tiles. Of course the first who pass expose hisself, so sometime you must slowplay. Anyway, every board his different and you must always adjust, but I still feel that going first in a game is an advantage.
I'm not saying that having that extra cube that changes everything after everybody has passed is not good. I'm just saying that I feel that going first is often alot better that playing last.

 
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Flying Arrow
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pothocket wrote:
Quote:
Due to a rules confusion we've been playing that the start player on each turn is the first to pass, and that player order is the order of passing, not simple clockwise.


If you don't want to play "simple clockwise", that's fine, but I strongly recommend reversing your turn order. I think that having the last to pass go first the next round is important to game balance. Going last is clearly better than having to place first. So if you keep turn order the same as passing order, it's much easier for the player that already went last to go last again. Simply because the other players go before him and although all players will use up cubes at roughly the same rate, the other players start using up their cubes before the last player and are thus more likely to finish first too.

If the other players want to break out of that turn order cycle they have to spend more cubes than the last player does. Cubes they should be saving up for the last turn.

In the end, it all amounts to unfair advantage to the player going last. Not because going last is best (which it is) but because it's easier for the last player to keep that advantage. So make sure your last to pass is your first to place a cube the next turn.


I disagree. Going first is an advantage. The faster you get your blocks on the board, the faster you can pass, and if you pass first you get to win the ties. If it is not an advantage to get your blocks on the board faster, then Tangerine and Blackmore are worthless patrons.
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