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A friend and I were playing the Grossbeeren scenario when an interesting situation arose.

A French Line Infantry unit moved to attack a Prussian Line Infantry unit in Melee combat. The Prussian player played First Strike before the French player rolled their combat dice, so they battled first. A Prussian Line Infantry unit in Melee will roll one additional die if:

Quote:
Prussian Expansion, p.5: When Prussian Line Infantry unit does not move or the unit is battling back, roll one additional die in melee


Question: Does a Prussian Line Infantry unit pick up a bonus die in Melee Combat if they are the side battling first under play of a First Strike card?

Quote:
p.23: FIRST STRIKE - Play this card after opponent declares a melee attack, but before the dice roll. Your defending unit will battle first. If the opponent’s unit is neither eliminated nor retreats it may then battle as originally ordered. At the end of the turn, you draw a replacement Command card first. (2 cards) Note: A defending unit that plays a First Strike is not eligible to Battle Back when it has used the First Strike to battle first in melee.


We played that the Prussian Line Infantry unit that battling first under First Strike would not get the bonus. The reason (from the First Strike card): "A unit that is battling in Melee under First Strike is not eligible to Battle Back..."

I think we played it right. But if not, I'd be interested in learning why not.
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George Curtiss
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I'd go the other way and allow the Prussians the extra die. They didn't move, and they are in melee. They are not allowed a Battle Back because they are considered to be doing their Battle Back first (and they do get an extra die in Battle Back).

Love to hear from Richard Borg on this - it is a good question!
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We've already played it the other way without even thinking about it. They didn't move and, as George noted, essentially they're battling back, just first. Seems they met both of the criteria, but, (semantics aside for the First Strike), they didn't move so they get the extra die.

Will be surprised if an official ruling goes the other way.
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Michael Dippel
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First Strike is an earlier "Battle Back", it changes only the the defenders battle back to first place.
So the Prussian still get the +1 Bonus die.

But the rules notice

"When Prussian Line Infantry unit does not move or the unit is battling back, roll 1 additional die in melee"

is indeed confusing. It would be better, to let away the red passage.

But i am also only 99% sure, therefore you get soon an direct answer from Richard (Publishing on ccnapolenics.net).
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David Groves
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Oh, how I envy you guys that are now playing out Prussian scenarios. I haven't even had a notification yet and my appetite is now totally whetted.
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Scott Smith
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David Groves wrote:
Oh, how I envy you guys that are now playing out Prussian scenarios. I haven't even had a notification yet and my appetite is now totally whetted. :D

Yeah, I was hoping to get home from work last night and see the Prussians on my doorstep... where is Blucher?
 
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mark selleck
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Well to me it seems they would get the +1 die as they meet at least the first criteria (by not moving) Even if it was deemed that it isnt technically a battle back they still meet the first point and since the rules use or you only need to meet one of them.

Bayernkini wrote:

"When Prussian Line Infantry unit does not move or the unit is battling back, roll 1 additional die in melee"

is indeed confusing. It would be better, to let away the red passage.



To me it seems the rule was written like this so as to make it clear that the +1 is awarded in your own turn and can be applied in your opponents turn. Otherwise I could see if the last bit was left out there would be questions clarifying if you get the +1 when battling back.

Dosnt seem that confusing since the word or is used, so you only need to meet one of the stipulations to get the =1 die.

 
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Michael Dippel
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I completely agree with you Mark,
but to convince the last doubter, the very offical designer intention
is on the FAQ on ccnapoleonics.net soon.

The better wording would be

When Prussian Line Infantry unit does not move (also the unit is battling back / use First Strike), roll 1 additional die in melee
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earache wrote:
We've already played it the other way without even thinking about it. They didn't move and, as George noted, essentially they're battling back, just first. Seems they met both of the criteria, but, (semantics aside for the First Strike), they didn't move so they get the extra die.

Will be surprised if an official ruling goes the other way.


We thought they might battle with the extra die, too, but the phrasing of the special rule left us in doubt when compared against the text of the First Strike card. A simpler sentence for a simple condition would be:

A Prussian Line Infantry unit will roll one additional die in Melee unless it moved during the Movemement Phase.

That covers all melee cases and makes clear the one exception.
 
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Michael Dippel
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Well, finally i receive Richards answer/rules intention
and Brady was indeed right!

"We did not give the Prussian Line Infantry unit the +1 die when using the “First Strike” Command card.
Possibly the better way to write the rule would have been:
When a Prussian Line Infantry unit is ordered and does not move, or the unit is battling back, roll 1 additional die in melee.
Thanks
Richard Borg"


FAQ is updated already

http://www.ccnapoleonics.net/Rules/FAQs/

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Thanks for the update, Michael. I'm glad to learn we played it right after all and that there is a distinction between Battle Back and battling first under First Strike.
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Jon Snow
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Yes, Michael, and thanks for the great FAQs. I'm still learning, and these are very helpful!
 
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Surprised indeed. Brady, glad you asked.
 
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George Curtiss
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Wow! This response surprised me. I would have played this situation wrong, and been sure that I was right.

Now I'm a little confused as to the closeness of the relationship between Battle Back and First Strike, which I had been positive was merely an issue of timing. I've got to say that I think Richard's ruling is counterintuitive.

Still, I'm glad you asked, Brady, and I'll play it the way Richard intends it to be played! I like one set of rules for my games....makes it much easier that way!
 
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Yeah, that is definately the exact opposite of how I would have read/interpreted the rule (and honestly seems a but counter-intuitive and overcomplicated).
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