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Subject: POLL: what scoring method do YOU use? rss

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Craig Duncan
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I'm new to Crokinole and I'm curious what the most common scoring method is.

I've seen various ways. Which is yours?

Poll
The scoring system I use most frequently is:
For each round, subtract smaller score from larger score, and round-winner gets the difference. Play to 100 points (or some other agreed target).
Each team scores the points on the board at round end (i.e. no subtracting scores). Play to an agreed target.
Round-winner scores 2 game points; in a drawn round, each team scores 1 game point. Play to 10 game points (or some other agreed target).
No permanent score kept; winner is simply the first to win two rounds (or some other agreed target). Drawn rounds are replayed.
Some other system (please describe in comments below).
      103 answers
Poll created by cdunc123


I'm also curious what target scores are most common, so feel free to reply and specify the target score that you most commonly use (and specify your scoring method).
 
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Henry Allen
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Re: How do you score?
cdunc123 wrote:
I'm new to Crokinole and I'm curious what the most common scoring method is.

I've seen various ways. Which is yours?

Poll
The scoring system I use most frequently is:
For each round, subtract smaller score from larger score, and round-winner gets the difference. Play to 100 points (or some other agreed target).
Each team scores the points on the board at round end (i.e. no subtracting scores). Play to an agreed target.
Round-winner scores 2 game points; in a drawn round, each team scores 1 game point. Play to 10 game points (or some other agreed target).
No permanent score kept; winner is simply the first to win two rounds (or some other agreed target). Drawn rounds are replayed.
Some other system (please describe in comments below).
      103 answers
Poll created by cdunc123


I'm also curious what target scores are most common, so feel free to reply and specify the target score you most commonly use (and specify your scoring method).


For years we used the first method you describe. The issue with it is that games can go on indefinitely if you constantly draw or have very close scores. I now always use method three (round winner gets 2, draw is 1 point per side, play to 10). It keeps the game length more predictable.
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S H
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Re: What scoring method do YOU use?
You need to let us vote for more than one. My game group uses bot #1 & #3 often.
 
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Demian Johnston

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Re: What scoring method do YOU use?
1: most common when teaching the game to beginners, it helps with the scoring and matches the rules most builders include with their boards. This is basically home scoring. 100 or 200 tends to be the most common.

3: although usually play 4 rounds rather than first to 10 points. This is basically tournament scoring.
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Craig Duncan
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Re: What scoring method do YOU use?
knipster wrote:
1: most common when teaching the game to beginners, it helps with the scoring and matches the rules most builders include with their boards. This is basically home scoring. 100 or 200 tends to be the most common.

3: although usually play 4 rounds rather than first to 10 points. This is basically tournament scoring.


Thanks for the info.

Quick question: If you use the "2 points for a win, 1 point for a draw" method and you play exactly 4 rounds, what is the purpose of the "1 point for a draw" rule?

As far as I can see that rule will never change the outcome of a game of 4 rounds. It will leave the score difference the same as before, and since there is no victory threshold score (i.e. no "first to 10 points win" condition) it won't make a difference that way either.

So what's the purpose of the "1 point for a draw" rule?

My guess is that in a tournament, some kind of cumulative score over a series of games is kept. Is that right? (And if so, how does that work?)
 
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S H
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Re: What scoring method do YOU use?
With #3, we play to 8 pts. That's also how we ran the tourney at GenCon this year.
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Craig Duncan
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Re: What scoring method do YOU use?
Boss Trojan wrote:
You need to let us vote for more than one. My game group uses bot #1 & #3 often.


Sorry. I should have thought of that. Alas, one cannot revise polls once they are made.

Boss Trojan wrote:
With #3, we play to 8 pts. That's also how we ran the tourney at GenCon this year.


That makes sense to me. I'm still curious about the answer to the question that I asked knipster above. Knipster uses #3 but plays just four rounds. In that case I can't see the point of the points granted for draws. Any idea?

For what it is worth, here is how I formulated the question to knipster in my 10:10am post:

cdunc123 wrote:
Quick question: If you use the "2 points for a win, 1 point for a draw" method and you play exactly 4 rounds, what is the purpose of the "1 point for a draw" rule?

As far as I can see that rule will never change the outcome of a game of 4 rounds. It will leave the score difference the same as before, and since there is no victory threshold score (i.e. no "first to 10 points win" condition) it won't make a difference that way either.

So what's the purpose of the "1 point for a draw" rule?

My guess is that in a tournament, some kind of cumulative score over a series of games is kept. Is that right? (And if so, how does that work?)
 
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The Count
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Re: What scoring method do YOU use?
#1.

I have tried #3 after I saw it was used in tournaments (WCC). And I think the reason was to shorter the matches so you can do a tournament.

But I find it to be an inferior scoring method.

It feels like resolving a soccer match/ice hockey game by penalty shots instead of playing the actual game.

Sure you could play a whole soccer tournament in a day if you just did penalty shots, but what's the point.

Edit: Fixed bad misspell because of autocorrect
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Demian Johnston

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In the few tournament settings I've played (Turtle Island and 2 WCCs), each game is made up of 4 rounds (8 discs a piece and 1 player is the hammer). So the total points for a game is 8.

With this in mind its likely that fairly matched players might end up with a 5-3 score. Its likely that 1 player won both their turns as hammer (going last), and scored a tie when their opponent was hammer.

Also, each of these tournaments start with some form of round robin play depending on the number of participants. This may very well have several games score 4-4. The players with the most accumulated points in this round typically progress to a playoff round-robin which similarly determines the final 4. Obviously there are tie-breaker rules, such as a 8 disc 20 shoot-out.


In the final four of a tournament, match play occurs. Match play is best 2 out of 3 games (remember each game is 4 rounds). In this circumstance, a game cannot be tied. There are 2 ways to settle this tie (tournaments differ). The 1st is a single round will be played to determine the game winner. The 2nd is playing additional pairs of rounds which requires a player to at least win and tie the 2 rounds to secure the game win. The WCC currently uses the 1st method which gives an advantage to the player would be hammer in the 5th round of a tie game.




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Craig Duncan
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Thanks for the extra details Demian; that helps me to understand things.


 
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Craig Duncan
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knipster wrote:
In the few tournament settings I've played (Turtle Island and 2 WCCs), each game is made up of 4 rounds (8 discs a piece and 1 player is the hammer). So the total points for a game is 8.

With this in mind its likely that fairly matched players might end up with a 5-3 score. Its likely that 1 player won both their turns as hammer (going last), and scored a tie when their opponent was hammer.

Also, each of these tournaments start with some form of round robin play depending on the number of participants. This may very well have several games score 4-4. The players with the most accumulated points in this round typically progress to a playoff round-robin which similarly determines the final 4. Obviously there are tie-breaker rules, such as a 8 disc 20 shoot-out.


In the final four of a tournament, match play occurs. Match play is best 2 out of 3 games (remember each game is 4 rounds). In this circumstance, a game cannot be tied. There are 2 ways to settle this tie (tournaments differ). The 1st is a single round will be played to determine the game winner. The 2nd is playing additional pairs of rounds which requires a player to at least win and tie the 2 rounds to secure the game win. The WCC currently uses the 1st method which gives an advantage to the player would be hammer in the 5th round of a tie game.


Just a further thought: since one's points accumulated from game to game over the course of the round-robin, points for draws do matter (thus answering my question in previous posts).

But one thing that is interesting to me is that there is no bonus additional point for winning a game of four rounds, i.e. for having more points at the end of four rounds (5-3, say) as opposed to having a tie (4-4, say).

So conceptually, you could describe such a tournament as a round-robin in which each player plays a single four-round game with each other player (i.e. the normal way of describing it), OR you could describe the tournament as a round-robin in which each player plays four single-round games with each other player. The difference is purely semantic.

Not sure why I find that interesting, but I do.
 
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John Grapentine
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I play a combination of #1 and #3. But we also do a slight variation between the points and rounds.

We play to 100 points, as well as record 2,1,or 0 points per round, that way we can truly determine which player is superior at winning rounds, or if a player just got hot on a particular round and dominated to win the game.

Also, with the race to 100 points (or whatever points you want), we track the rounds as well, and if a player reaches 100 and the other player has not had the equal amount of "hammer opportunities", that player gets one more round with the hammer, and the possibility of maybe beating their opponent in the race to 100 or more. Sort of like innings in baseball.
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Craig Duncan
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stringbend wrote:
Also, with the race to 100 points (or whatever points you want), we track the rounds as well, and if a player reaches 100 and the other player has not had the equal amount of "hammer opportunities", that player gets one more round with the hammer, and the possibility of maybe beating their opponent in the race to 100 or more. Sort of like innings in baseball.


Thanks for the feedback, John. Quick question (as a newbie to Crokinole): "the hammer" is the final flick of a round, right? (Or maybe, the person with the privilege of making the final flick.)
 
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Demian Johnston

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cdunc123 wrote:
But one thing that is interesting to me is that there is no bonus additional point for winning a game of four rounds, i.e. for having more points at the end of four rounds (5-3, say) as opposed to having a tie (4-4, say).

So conceptually, you could describe such a tournament as a round-robin in which each player plays a single four-round game with each other player (i.e. the normal way of describing it), OR you could describe the tournament as a round-robin in which each player plays four single-round games with each other player. The difference is purely semantic.

Not sure why I find that interesting, but I do.


I think this is accurate for the the round robin stages of a given tournament. In playoff stages, where only one player advances, a winner needs to be determined.

For what I've observed, Competitive crokinole tends to be very high level(skilled) but not cutthroat. I've sat across from nearly all the "ranked" players and they are complimentary of good shots, and quite friendly.

The culture of the competitive crokinole community is surprisingly welcoming and nurturing.
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Demian Johnston

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'Hammer' can be both the last shot and the player who has the last shot

It's not uncommon to hear: I'm the hammer, or I've got the hammer.
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John Grapentine
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Yes, Craig, you've got it! The hammer is the last shot of the round. It can make a big difference in who wins the round if the players are closely matched.
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Joe Casadonte
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We often play "boards", especially when the player skills are mismatched. Tally the points at the end of the round, whoever has the most points gets to score 1 (out of 10, usually).
 
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Pete Martyn
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We use #1, playing to 125 points. Long enough that dramatic comebacks are possible, but not so long that everyone starts getting bored.

I see why some people might prefer #3, but to me it would seem to encourage a more cautious approach to playing -- if there's no difference between winning by five points and winning by fifty, that would seem to encourage a very conservative, defensive style of play.
 
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Jeff Binning
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We use #1 and usually play to 150.

I'm a stronger player than my wife, so when she and I play I use one less piece than she does. Giving her the first and last shot in a round evens up our play nicely.
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