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Subject: Wraith and combat stance timing rss

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Miguel
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Wraith's combat stance is imprecise about the timing of her counter-attack. Does it occur before or after the incoming attack? I think she attacks after, but it's not as clear as other cards.

Slip into shadows, for example, is clearer about when the incoming attack is resolved vs her ability.

 
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Dennison Milenkaya
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It is triggered by her taking damage. She can't do it before she's struck. She also can't do it if no damage is dealt to her because she reduced it all to 0 or less, via Stealth or otherwise.
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Miguel
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Thanks!

Follow up question. If she is incapacitated from the attack, does she attack back or not?

Thanks,

Miguel
 
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No. As soon as she is incapped all her cards are removed from the game, so Combat Stance is not in play to react.
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Dennison Milenkaya
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Considering the Explosives Wagon [Silver Gulch] and Sonic Mines [Ambuscade] do cause damage upon destruction, I'd wager Wraith makes the counter-attack when she's incapacitated.

First she takes damage, then she's destroyed. Nothing is simultaneous. Therefore, insert Combat Stance between those two steps.
 
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Maciej Stępiński
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Except Explosive Wagon and Sonic Mines SPECIFICALLY says they do that on destruction, while Combat Stance doesn't.

Think about the theme- mines and explosives are made to blow up themselves and stuff, while combat counters can't be used by an unconscious fighter (unless they know some kind of sleep-fu, which Wraith probably doesn't).
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Dennison Milenkaya
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... And Combat Stance SPECIFICALLY says that she retaliates when she's damaged. If Wraith is destroyed without taking damage, then she wouldn't counter-attack.

And remember, nothing is simultaneous. She isn't unconscious until she's destroyed, which is after the damage is dealt, so there's still time to kick back.
 
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Jason Green
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The tablet app implements it such that you don't get to retaliate - ie the removal of the cards happens before the card has time to retaliate.

Quote:
And remember, nothing is simultaneous


Even so, the question of whether or not you have control of which happens first (removal of cards or card action) would determine the outcome. And I believe this is one of those situations where you can't choose.

Quote:
First she takes damage, then she's destroyed. Nothing is simultaneous. Therefore, insert Combat Stance between those two steps.


The rules say:
Quote:
When a hero is reduced to 0 or fewer hp, remove all of that hero's cards from the game, leaving only the hero character card, flipping it over so their incapacitated side is up

So there is no step between taking damage and being destroyed.

Possibly you could argue that this "when..." step is a separate step that is interpreted separately, and therefore players can choose the order things get resolved, but I would argue that since it isn't a card, you don't get to choose.
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Dennison Milenkaya
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SmackleFunky wrote:
The tablet app implements it such that you don't get to retaliate - ie the removal of the cards happens before the card has time to retaliate.

I'm not debating the validity of the app.

SmackleFunky wrote:
Even so, the question of whether or not you have control of which happens first (removal of cards or card action) would determine the outcome. And I believe this is one of those situations where you can't choose.

Seems odd that this would be the one time where you couldn't.

SmackleFunky wrote:
The rules say:
Quote:
When a hero is reduced to 0 or fewer hp, remove all of that hero's cards from the game, leaving only the hero character card, flipping it over so their incapacitated side is up

So there is no step implied between taking damage and being destroyed.

There is also no "step" implied by "Deals each hero target 2 toxic damage" but we know that Combat Stance can occur between the toxic damage dealt to Wraith and the toxic damage dealt to Unity.

SmackleFunky wrote:
Possibly you could argue that this "when..." step is a separate step that is interpreted separately, and therefore players can choose the order things get resolved, but I would argue that since it isn't a card, you don't get to choose.

Aside from the general rule that when two things try to happen at the same time, the heroes choose the order in which those things occur, sure. Of course, that wasn't the original ruling, but it was retconned as such. So if the app isn't quite right, then I understand.

By the way, Akash'Bhuta's Mountainous Carapci don't say specifically that she is protected by their damage reduction while the Carapace itself is being destroyed and dealing damage to her, but it does, because it was in effect at the time of its destruction.

I know that it seems like a hero that is knocked out can't make an attack, but rules and simulations are not always going to agree. There's nothing indicating that Combat Stance doesn't follow the same progression as everything else in the game.

Granted, I could be wrong, but the evidence leans too heavily in this direction that it is the combat stance that I'm taking.
 
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Jason Green
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Cards that say "When this card gets destroyed" stay in play whilst the being destroyed text is being applied, so does not apply as an example here.

Essentially this comes down to whether or not you can choose the order of events. The general rule of "player chooses when two things would happen simultaneously" would indeed suggest that you can choose.

After thinking about this... it seems to revolve around the "when" keyword, which seems a bit ambiguous.

Some "When" examples:

Absolute Zero Null-Poiny Calibration Unit says "When absolute zero would take cold damage, he ragains that many hp instead". Does that trigger before or after he gets hit? technically it's an interrupt. By this logic, the current action is interrupted and the new action happens immediately before the action is completed (and can possibly replace it).
I.e., instead of "going to 0 life", instead you remove all your cards and flip. In which case, you don't have time to respond.

A lot of "When" and "Whenever" cards interrupt an action and replace it with a modified one.

But...

Fanatic Aegis of Resurrection - "When fanatic drop to 0 or fewer hp, restore fanatic to 10 HP, then, destroy this card" - obviously this card would have to react before the game rules, otherwise it would never work...
Getting hit and being reduced to 0 HP is being hit AND being reduced to 0 hp simultaneously (and it's not two things happening simultaneously, it's one thing that has two outcomes). If AoR can occur before the game rules, then so can any other card right?

Or you could say that the "When/Whenever" cards are simultaneous and happen before any reaction cards, but I am merely speculating to my arguments advantage, and could easily argue either way. So I can see it is up to interpretation.

I'm still going to play it my way though. But it is ambiguous by my reckoning.
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Dennison Milenkaya
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I was actually going to cite Aegis of Resurrection (and Fanatic's nemesis interaction with his Relics upon being reduced to 0 or fewer HP) in my most recent post, too, but kinda got caught up.

Yes, there is a definite separation between taking the damage that reduces a character to 0 or fewer HP and the cards being removed from play.

SmackleFunky wrote:
If AoR can occur before the game rules, then so can any other card right?

The Golden Rule is that if the cards conflict with the rulebook, the cards are always right. The only rule to consider is if Wraith took damage, if it was from a target, and if that target hasn't damaged her already that turn. If yeses, then she strikes back. Even if that means she's hitting herself because of an Infection courtesy of Plague Rat.

SmackleFunky wrote:
I'm still going to play it my way though. But it is ambiguous by my reckoning.

And player choice breaks ties in the case of ambiguity.

I'm glad that you've come around. The Aegis example pretty much convinces me, too. I suggest visiting the bug reporting page of the app to resolve this matter.
 
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FlatOnHisFace wrote:
By the way, Akash'Bhuta's Mountainous Carapci don't say specifically that she is protected by their damage reduction while the Carapace itself is being destroyed and dealing damage to her, but it does, because it was in effect at the time of its destruction.

No. It is not because the Mountainous Carapace was in play that reduces the damage, it is because it is still in play when the damage from the destruction happens. The 'destruction clause' trigger makes the card stay in play until after the text on it has finished, using the same wording as on Explosive Wagon and Sonic Mines.

Aegis of Resurrection has similar but different wording to do the same thing, while it is in play follow those instructions instead of the rules, you called this the Golden Rule in your earlier post.

Combat Stance does not have such a clause, it does not trigger when you are reduced to 0 HP.

FlatOnHisFace wrote:
I suggest visiting the bug reporting page of the app to resolve this matter.

Only if you want to be told that the app is already doing it correctly.
 
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Jason Green
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FlatOnHisFace wrote:

SmackleFunky wrote:
If AoR can occur before the game rules, then so can any other card right?

The Golden Rule is that if the cards conflict with the rulebook, the cards are always right.


(Getting quite off topic now...)

Actually in terms of Aegis, it isn't a conflict with the rulebook... based on the "Simultaneous/Player choose" rule, both Aegis and Incapacitation should both occur (but in player order)... But of course that doesn't make sense. But I'll just assume that the Aegis card should have the words "instead of incapacitation" or something like that.
 
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Miguel
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Hmmm.

So, thanks for all the replies but I just realized I'm in the wrong forum! I wanted to post this in the sentinels tactics forum, and somehow did it here.

Really sorry! Odd that terminology is so similar that I was able to read so much of the thread before realizing my mistake! ( actually, it was the references to the app that finally did it)
 
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Dylan Thurston
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agent easy wrote:
Really sorry! Odd that terminology is so similar that I was able to read so much of the thread before realizing my mistake! ( actually, it was the references to the app that finally did it)
That is pretty funny! I'll give a substantive response on the other thread.
 
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Dennison Milenkaya
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Matchstickman wrote:
No. It is not because the Mountainous Carapace was in play that reduces the damage, it is because it is still in play when the damage from the destruction happens. The 'destruction clause' trigger makes the card stay in play until after the text on it has finished, using the same wording as on Explosive Wagon and Sonic Mines.

Combat Stance was in play that causes a counter-strike. It is because it is still in play when the damage from the target happens.

You are making all the right arguments; you are just arriving at the wrong conclusion.

Matchstickman wrote:
Aegis of Resurrection has similar but different wording to do the same thing, while it is in play follow those instructions instead of the rules, you called this the Golden Rule in your earlier post.

Combat Stance does not have such a clause, it does not trigger when you are reduced to 0 HP.

It doesn't need a special trigger that occurs when she's reduced to 0 or fewer HP. It already has a trigger that occurs when she's reduced by any amount of HP. Again, if she is destroyed by an effect that doesn't reduce her HP, which can happen, then you'd be right.

As it is, that special clause that you mention not being there is exactly why I'm right. There's no exception written anywhere in the rulebook, the cards, or even in Spiff's accumulated rulings that states that Wraith deals 2 melee damage, unless she has been reduced to 0 or fewer HP by the damage she was dealt. You are making that up. And if you want to play it that way, feel free. I'm happy for you. I'm delighted that Jason wishes to do so, also. But it isn't a rule.

It is the very fact that Aegis of Resurrection, Apostate, and Dreamer do not say "instead" on their instructions of what to do when reduced to 0 or fewer HP that validates that they create no special exception to the rules. They simply add to the rules. We should focus on Fanatic, because her's is most similar, as she and Wraith are both hero characters and their thing that's happening is coming from a separate card in play.

Since Fanatic is merely restored to 10 HP when reduced to 0 or fewer, and not told specifically that this is instead of taking damage, instead of flipping or incapacitating, or instead of removing her cards in play first, we must conclude that being reduced to 0 or fewer HP doesn't automatically, irrevocably, and immediately cause card removal, flipping, or incapacitation. It just reduces the target to 0 or fewer HP, causes the Aegis to react, restoring Fanatic to 10 HP, as it says, and Fanatic gets on with her day.

Because the word "instead" doesn't appear, it isn't creating a special exception; it is just adding an effect of HP restoration to Fanatic's condition upon resolution. Combat Stance, also, has no special exception. It just causes damage when Wraith is dealt damage by a target, assuming it is the first time per turn that target hurts her. Why should her card not take effect at this time?

Similarly, if a hero character remains in play due to Fixed Point being in effect, not only are the hero's cards not removed immediately from play, but the hero even has a small opportunity to recover to positive HP before Fixed Point elapses. Being reduced to 0 HP wants to implement the flipping & incapacitating condition. But before it does, Wraith must take damage, and when that happens, she has a response, just as Fanatic does. Her cards are still in play until she is destroyed.

I'm very sorry, but you are going to have to man up and admit you are wrong on this one. Triggers can occur at any time. Or, to be straight, they occur at whatever time they say they do. There's nothing that says Wraith's trigger (being damaged) doesn't occur just because it happened when she was nearly finished off. Fixed Point would keep the hero character active for a little while, but their cards in play, hand, deck, and trash would already be gone, according to your interpretation.

As a side-note, non-targets can cause damage and incapacitated heroes can cause damage. You may be thinking that it makes sense that Wraith can't deal the damage because the effect is about to incapacitate her, but that's just not how the rules function.

Matchstickman wrote:
FlatOnHisFace wrote:
I suggest visiting the bug reporting page of the app to resolve this matter.

Only if you want to be told that the app is already doing it correctly.

I see you are trying to be clever, and I applaud you for it, but it falls flat in the face of your being inaccurate. Your house rule does not make the app correct.
 
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I think Matchstickman has it right. Wraith's incapacitation interrupts the effect of Combat Stance. This is then removed from play before its effect takes place.

This is in the same way that if the Wraith can interrupt and destroy a target that is dealing damage to multiple targets with Damage from combat stance, this will stop the additional instances of damage.
 
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MontyCrisco wrote:
I think Matchstickman has it right. Wraith's incapacitation interrupts the effect of Combat Stance. This is then removed from play before its effect takes place.


Yep.
 
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Chris D
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emptyh wrote:
MontyCrisco wrote:
I think Matchstickman has it right. Wraith's incapacitation interrupts the effect of Combat Stance. This is then removed from play before its effect takes place.


Yep.


Indeed.
 
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Ronway wrote:
emptyh wrote:
MontyCrisco wrote:
I think Matchstickman has it right. Wraith's incapacitation interrupts the effect of Combat Stance. This is then removed from play before its effect takes place.


Yep.


Indeed.


Agree.
 
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Dennison Milenkaya
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So you are saying that if a hero is reduced to 0 HP while Fixed Point is in play, that hero isn't destroyed, but their cards are removed from the game. Then, the hero can be recovered to positive HP, but continue with no cards. We know that doesn't happen.

The cards are not removed until the hero is destroyed, which happens after being reduced to 0 HP. There is time for stuff to trigger at this time, as proven by Aegis of Resurrection.

You are not right. You are all just going with your gut instinct without any evidence to back it up.
 
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Dylan Thurston
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FlatOnHisFace wrote:
So you are saying that if a hero is reduced to 0 HP while Fixed Point is in play, that hero isn't destroyed, but their cards are removed from the game. Then, the hero can be recovered to positive HP, but continue with no cards. We know that doesn't happen.
When Fixed Point is in play, cards cannot be removed from play either.
 
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FlatOnHisFace wrote:
So you are saying that if a hero is reduced to 0 HP while Fixed Point is in play, that hero isn't destroyed, but their cards are removed from the game. Then, the hero can be recovered to positive HP, but continue with no cards. We know that doesn't happen.

The cards are not removed until the hero is destroyed, which happens after being reduced to 0 HP. There is time for stuff to trigger at this time, as proven by Aegis of Resurrection.

You are not right. You are all just going with your gut instinct without any evidence to back it up.


We are just interpreting it differently from you. It is encouraging that the app interprets the same way we do. We can geekily discuss it here to no end what is often really fun but I don't think either camp will convince the other. If anyone feels like it, they can always just send the question to >games.
 
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Dennison Milenkaya
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Quote:
When Fixed Point is in play, cards cannot be removed from play either.

They may not be removed from play, but you still have no deck, trash, or hand. You'll pretty much only have Combat Stance for the rest of the game. Bad rebuttal. It doesn't prove me wrong.

I'm not sure how you can't be convinced. Follow all the rules you use for everything else. I don't see where you find this to be the only exception to cards being removed before incapacitation or not fighting back when dealt damage because it was the last damage dealt to her.
 
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FlatOnHisFace wrote:
Quote:
When Fixed Point is in play, cards cannot be removed from play either.

They may not be removed from play, but you still have no deck, trash, or hand. You'll pretty much only have Combat Stance for the rest of the game. Bad rebuttal. It doesn't prove me wrong.

I'm not sure how you can't be convinced. Follow all the rules you use for everything else. I don't see where you find this to be the only exception to cards being removed before incapacitation or not fighting back when dealt damage because it was the last damage dealt to her.


Let's keep geekily discussing then. I am glad my post is time stamped so we can look back at it eventually when neither camp has been convinced by the other.

Timing is often a point of discussion in many games. Even Netrunner players still get surprised by some of the rulings that come out when they are sure it should have gone a different direction. It is very difficult to be convinced by your passionate arguments when the opposite point is also perfectly logical and supported by the official app.

I would not be shocked if the final ruling came out with either interpretation. I am far from convinced to play your way by reading your explanation.
 
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