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Subject: Gomorra Parish - good or bad? rss

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mplain
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I remember reading some articles written by the GenCon players couple of months ago, and they praised Gomorra Parish for several reasons:

1. You can get rid of off-value cards from your deck, and thus improve shootout structure.
2. You can get rid of extra copies of dudes and deeds that you already have in play, or those that got aced.
3. You can earn some money acing dudes from your hand with the Undertaker in play.

Well, the first two seem contradictory to me. If I have several copies of the same card, it's usually because it's good for my shootout structure. And if I have dudes or deeds that are off-value for my deck, it's because I want to play them real bad.

As for the Undertaker, well, if some of my dudes get aced, I'd trade the extra copies for 3 bucks a piece - it's a good price for a card that is dead in my hand! But $1 (without the Undertaker) doesn't always justify making my shootout structure worse, and even $3 isn't usually enough to make me forfeit a guy that I can still use in the future (if he's not aced already).

So how's Gomorra Parish been for you? Maybe I'm using it all wrong?
 
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Dennison Milenkaya
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Also, it is good for reducing your odds of Cheatin'! when you see your opponents are more punishing than you'd normally expect.
 
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Yoshi
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mplain wrote:
I remember reading some articles written by the GenCon players couple of months ago, and they praised Gomorra Parish for several reasons:

1. You can get rid of off-value cards from your deck, and thus improve shootout structure.
2. You can get rid of extra copies of dudes and deeds that you already have in play, or those that got aced.
3. You can earn some money acing dudes from your hand with the Undertaker in play.

Well, the first two seem contradictory to me. If I have several copies of the same card, it's usually because it's good for my shootout structure. And if I have dudes or deeds that are off-value for my deck, it's because I want to play them real bad.


Getting rid of cards that are multiples but not good for your structure could be for a couple of reasons. You could have for example 2 copies of some deeds, just to get the deed out for control/ability and after that the deed is not good since the value is off. You often have a couple of cards that are not aligned with your draw structure.

You could also be running a deck that initially has a certain draw structure and as the game goes on you play your dudes and deeds and get rid of the excess dudes and deeds to allow your deck to degenerate into another draw structure, for example straight flush, as you later in the game are left with only clubs.

Mostly I think the parrish is good to get rid of the dead deeds and aced dudes. I donät think it is too detrimental for the draw structure as you by then should have a bunch of the non-aligned values/suits on the table and mostly in-line cards left, removing a dead (in regards of play) card from the deck is probably better for you in all even if it is in value, since the deck has a greater ratio of in value cards left and you want to be able to actually use as many cards as possible of the ones you get in your play hand.

I'd say
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mplain
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Y00shi wrote:
Getting rid of cards that are multiples but not good for your structure could be for a couple of reasons. You could have for example 2 copies of some deeds, just to get the deed out for control/ability and after that the deed is not good since the value is off. You often have a couple of cards that are not aligned with your draw structure.

Well, yeah, I can understand that. Like, when I'm playing a goods-heavy deck I also have 2x General Store, sometimes even 3x, even though it's off-value for my shootout structure. It saves a lot of money. But other than that, I can hardly think of some other off-value deed I'd want to run 2x.

Y00shi wrote:
You could also be running a deck that initially has a certain draw structure and as the game goes on you play your dudes and deeds and get rid of the excess dudes and deeds to allow your deck to degenerate into another draw structure, for example straight flush, as you later in the game are left with only clubs.

Honestly, that sounds like some mad theory with a difficulty of 10. I don't think this can ever happen in practice... But heck, if I'm wrong then I'd love to see that deck!

Y00shi wrote:
Mostly I think the parrish is good to get rid of the dead deeds and aced dudes. I donät think it is too detrimental for the draw structure as you by then should have a bunch of the non-aligned values/suits on the table and mostly in-line cards left, removing a dead (in regards of play) card from the deck is probably better for you in all even if it is in value, since the deck has a greater ratio of in value cards left and you want to be able to actually use as many cards as possible of the ones you get in your play hand.

You're probably right. If I need a quick buck, it won't hurt my structure too much if I ace a couple of surplus deeds or dead dudes, or excessive goods. Still, I don't think the effect is strong enough to justify having Gomorra Parish in the deck if it's off-value.
 
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Yoshi
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mplain wrote:

You're probably right. If I need a quick buck, it won't hurt my structure too much if I ace a couple of surplus deeds or dead dudes, or excessive goods. Still, I don't think the effect is strong enough to justify having Gomorra Parish in the deck if it's off-value.


Off value, maybe not, but then again, there are not too many deeds in the game right now, so better use what is there. It is a holy ground, so at least Abraham can have some effect. Probably in the future when given more options, this might not be used as much, unless in a deck that can make use of the effect or keywords in some way.

Oh, also, in 4R/Hex decks with raising hell dudes you ace are kept safe in boothill for when needed, instead of clogging up your hand, it is nice to have options
 
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David Boeren
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I think you're looking at it a bit too black & white where every card is unconditionally good or unconditionally bad. If a card is "good", then why would I *ever* want to ace it? If a card is "bad", then why would I *ever* put it in my deck to begin with? Therefore, my deck is made up entirely of unconditionally good cards and I never want to ace anything.

Far from it! Gomorra Parish does a lot of useful things for you. First, you make some money. Second, you can cycle your hand faster because acing a card makes room for more new cards to come in. It can offer some synergy with Undertaker for even more money, Raising Hell to set up Abominations, and eventually more cards. And then yes, it can also be used as a tool to thin your deck in order to thin out dead cards, improve your poker structure, etc...

It's a fairly flexible tool. It can do a lot of things but it's up to the player to decide WHAT to do with it. Easiest thing is to just make money and cycle cards faster, but if you can additionally factor in how your poker structure will be impacted you can derive some extra benefits that will help guide you as to which card to ace of several options.
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Davido
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I had 2 copies of Gomorra Parish in a Fourth Ring shooter. The idea was to degenerate down to a straight flush (deck degeneration is harder in Reloaded than classic, GP is one of the the few ways to do this). Well, long story short, pulling GP FOUR times during the game caused spell failure EACH time. In short, GP never came up before I needed to pull for spells, and bad fortune that it came up during spell pulls.

So in a pull deck (gadgets/spells), GP is a risk that can misfire.
OTOH, it is cheap, has CP, and a useful ability, so I continue to use it in many of my decks. Also for decks that WANT to pull low (e.g. w/ Faithful Hound or Legendary Holster) or find 2's on value, it is very useful indeed.
 
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Dennison Milenkaya
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Time was, the classic Stagecoach Office (which had the same ability as the modern Gomorra Parish) could be used to remove cards that would be really strong against the right opponent.

I think that the Reloaded game doesn't want to introduce too many situational effects, but there was previously some really nasty effects that could be applied to an opponent's Harrowed. Or a Blessed. You might also have a card chambered for someone that cheats with both hands.

Then, you find yourself in a game where no-one else using Harrowed or Blessed and no-one is Cheatin'! heavily. You could use the Stagecoach Office to remove those cards from circulation, thin your deck, and get paid for doing it! That was a way better solution than just hoping no-one would use some strong combinations with nothing to do about it.

But, to keep all the cards relevant, I feel like Reloaded may just design cards for more general utility. Considering most people think of this as a two-player game, they'll appreciate that. Those specialized cards gain a lot of worth when you figure that out of three opponents, someone is more likely to use Harrowed. With only a single rival gang, you are probably just including a dead card that hurts you more than them.
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mplain
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Ah, now this actually starts to make much more sense to me. Seems that the people who advocate that Gomorra Parish is a good card are actually oldschool Classic players that know its potential. I get it.

But I've never played Classic, so I can only judge its application in the current card pool. And within its limits I don't see much use for it, off-value. We'll see how it goes, of course, and what the design team has in mind for us.

Thanks for your answers guys!
 
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David Boeren
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I wasn't a Classic player either, but card draw and extra money are useful in any card game. Being able to tune your poker structure on top of that is just gravy.
 
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Freelance Police
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MtG articles on deck thinning:
http://www.blackborder.com/q/node/1581
http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3554776

With Doomtown's deck cycling, it's even more important to control which cards appear in your hand and poker hands. Do you want to increase the odds of drawing a card you want to play or not??
 
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mplain
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Sam and Max wrote:
Do you want to increase the odds of drawing a card you want to play or not??

If at the same time it hurts my shootout structure, the answer is: I'm not so sure. If it will outright prevent me from playing a certain dude in the future, the answer is: probably not.

By filtering out the cards you don't want in your play hand, you probably hurt your draw hand. By improving your shootout structure you probably lose some cards that you'd want to actually play. If filtering some card benefits both your play and draw hand, the question is: why do you have it in your deck in the first place?

Well, okay, it might be an off-value Coachwhip that you might not want in your deck against Law Dogs. I can't think of any more examples, but perhaps you can? In any case, if you have a lot of specific 'sideboard' cards in your deck, so much so that you actually want to play an off-value way of filtering them... Well, I have doubts about this being a good deck. If you disagree, I'd be happy to see an example decklist.

Practice, not theory. Doomtown, not MtG.
 
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Chad Woodward
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I run it because I have a few situtational cards that are not part of my draw structure in my deck for certain matchups and since doomtown doesn't sideboard like MtG does it's good to be able to get them out of there if I won't need them. Plus I run a couple of deeds at 2x and once I drop one of them it's nice to ace the spare to get it out of my deck. It's also worth a CP.
 
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