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Rivet Wars: Eastern Front» Forums » Rules

Subject: Gas rules must SURELY be wrong rss

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toby
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Prefatory note: I understand the timing of the movement of gas clouds (start of gasser's movement phase) and that they stick around 2 full rounds (not turns). This is not a question regarding those issues, which have been adequately addressed.

The rules state that the gas attacks "any unit hit by a gas attack, beginning their [sic] activation on a gas cloud, or moving through a grid that contains a gas cloud". Further, "Clouds also move one grid each round..., immediately making a Flat Grid attack... on any units in that grid".

If we take this literally, this seems WAY more deadly to accidental/secondary targets than I imagine was intended.

Let's consider. It would mean the Baron shoots his gas at a grid and units in that grid are each attacked with 2 dice, per the "any unit hit by a gas attack" clause. Cool.

Immediately thereafter, in the Blight player's movement Phase, the gas scatters into what I'll call "Grid 2", determined by an action card flip. Units in Grid 2 are immediately attacked with 2 dice, per "Clouds also move one grid each round..., immediately making a Flat Grid attack... on any units in that grid." So far, so good.

Then its the Ally player's turn. In his Combat Phase, when the units in Grid 2 are activated, are they seriously supposed to be attacked AGAIN, immediately, per the "any unit... beginning [its] activation on a gas cloud... suffers an attack by the could" clause? And then, assuming they aren't able to Rapid Assault out of the cloud's way, are they YET AGAIN attacked when Grid 2 is again activated during the Ally player's Movement Phase per the same "beginning their activation" clause? Three 2-dice flat-grid attacks in a row with nothing to be done about it?!?

I am guessing the actual intent was that the gas cloud attack when it's first placed, when it scatters and when a unit moves in or through it (not just "through"), with the "beginning their activation" clause being a relic of some earlier iteration. The fact that units don't have a singular activation, but rather two separate activations, suggests this, as does the fact that playing per RAW would mean the actual TARGET of the gas attack gets hit once while whomever is hanging out in "Grid 2" eats 3 attacks before they can even move out of the way, which just seems bizarre.
 
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Tom Hill
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Gas rules are often misunderstood. I'd like a video to be made to clarify the process.

Gas shouldn't be being moved in an opponent's turn; nor should it attack, unless an enemy unit moves into the square.

The rules were clarified a bit here in the FAQ:
http://www.rivetwars.com/docs/rw_faq_14_01b.pdf

Quote:
"Here’s a little trick to help keep track of gas clouds: When you create one, place the gas marker with the “gassier” side facing up. At the start of your next combat phase, flip the gas cloud to its “less gassy” side. Then at the start of your next combat phase, remove the marker
completely."


The gas deviating as soon as it first lands is a little annoying; it's more useful to stay on a target and block a grid for the next round.

Make sure you check this thread out, which includes some suggestions for alternative play:

http://www.coolminiornot.com/forums/showthread.php?57762-Que...
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toby
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It seems like neither respondent read the first paragraph of my post, in which I emphasized that I understood very well how the deviation works and for how long the cloud persists. Seriously, I get that.

In the linked post (but not the part quoted above) by Kevin Smith, he might have been inferring what I'm inferring without explicitly stating that the rules as written must be wrong, when he says, "So based on the last sentence, it'd be a single gas attack against each model that is affected [by the gas]". [emphasis added]

He is referring by "last sentence" to the version of the rules currently available at rivetwars.com, which reads: "All units, whether friend or foe, that begin their turn on a gas cloud, move through a grid that contains a gas cloud, or have a gas cloud move into their grid, suffer a single gas attack using the attack stats of the creator of the cloud." Kevin doesn't make it crystal clear that he means, as I believe the rules intend, that "each model should be subject to one and only one attack TOTAL" (unless the model moves out and back into the gas, or unless the cloud deviates off of an unmoving model's grid and then back on to it a round later), but it's difficult to see what else he could be getting at with the "single gas attack" verbiage.

I'm guessing the bit about beginning a turn/activating must be there to cover cases such as a unit spawning in a gas cloud. If the rules simply said the gas cloud attack when placed or moved, or when a unit moves into the cloud, such a unit wouldn't be affected, since it would appear (not move), then move into a clear space out of the cloud. Common sense suggests any such unit should be hit, thus the admonition to attack units activating (printed rules) or beginning their turn (online rules) in the cloud.

edit: formatting
 
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Tom Hill
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You seem to be simply asking: does a unit that just got attacked by gas get attacked at the start of their turn?

Not when I play; I justify by quoting the tip from the FAQ. It is often helpful for other people reading who are less familiar with the rules to have access to the source.

I'm aware you're capable of interpreting the rules as they have been published.

You are correct - there is clearly a loophole for double gas attacks to hit in quick sucession.

The second link I provided contains some interesting house variants. I thought you may be interedted.
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toby
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Decar wrote:
You seem to be simply asking: does a unit that just got attacked by gas get attacked at the start of their turn?


Well, that or at the start of its activations in the movements phase and then again in the combat phase, yes, per the printed rules.

As I mentioned, the online rules reference to a unit's "turn" is funny since that's a concept that doesn't really exist anywhere else in the rules as far as I can tell. CMON desperately needs to hire a technical writer.

Decar wrote:
Not when I play; I justify by quoting the tip from the FAQ. It is often helpful for other people reading who are less familiar with the rules to have access to the source.


I guess I don't see how the FAQ tip is germane. The "single attack" line in the online rules seems to me more pregnant with possibly intended import. But yeah, it sounds like you're already playing it how I'm thinking it should be played. I'd just like to hear from Ted that in this case RAW ain't Rules-as-intended.

I read through the thread in your link. I'd already had a think about the lack of tactical precision/blocking ability inherent to deviating the cloud almost immediately, in the Blight's movement phase. However, I'm pretty sure this was very deliberately thought out, to simulate the frustrating/haphazard nature of gas in WWI-ish combat, so I don't really wanna monkey with it too much. I guess it seems like there should be a chance it doesn't deviate -- why would it be guaranteed to move -- but I'm guessing the main idea was to reward a player for dropping gas in the middle of a bunch of enemy-occupied grids, and the idea that the Baron has a chance to do a 2-dice flat-grid attack against TWO grids in a turn is probably the only thing that makes me consider buying him, considering how freaking long he takes to get to the front.

SPEAKING OF WHICH... You've obviously played a lot, and I am definitely curious what you think about the Baron, Jager and Wolverine's value/utility as is.

Parman's great, obviously, although we play per Ted's comment somewhere in the CMON forums that he can't be played for free with Improved Assembly, which we decided should just give you 2 free points to spend on cavalry, FAQ be damned.

But the others... I dunno, both Jager and the Gasman seem like they should cost 2/1 or else receive Runner (+1), at least right now, when we've only played 8-10 times. Runner would be great to make Wolverine more alluring, too, but probably not thematic. Some other tweak seems in order, although less so since he can always get Parman-ferried to the front. Alternately make them 4/1 but improve them, because so far it seems too often that it's a much better move to bank the rivet and build 3 grunts or a grunt/2-cost unit (or just build Parman) than to build these guys.

But perhaps your experience differs?

Along these lines, have you seen Jager's sniper ability getting much play at all? In our games we're always spreading our grunts out anyway to avoid flat-grid/chain attacks, so there's almost never a situation in which one unit is shielding a more valuable one.

Thanks, man.
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Tom Hill
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I thought the FAQ was relevant because; as I read it, it doesn't say: "Attack the units in a grid when the grid is activated".

I'd consider a unit being deployed into a gas-cloud as moving into the gas cloud; even if it hasn't had a movement phase yet. So I would expect the unit to roll against gas when entering the board.

This is more quite likely to happen now War Room is available too. The Iron Chancellor & Uncle Rivet both have abilities to call up extra troops. I suspect, they may do this from inside a gas-cloud.

As for the heroes from the Eastern Front, I treat them as very specialized units, so I call them up when I need them for a job. I think, from what you've said our experiences are similar. These are my opinions.

I find it really depends on the sizing for the mission too; sometimes during a small 3-4DP game they hardly see any action, because normal-units are needed too desperately. So I can see why you may want them cheaper or better value.

Parman: As the rules stand, Parman can be used as a shuttle-bus. Generally, this is considered poor-play by the community and now we use him in the Parman(X) variant.

http://www.coolminiornot.com/forums/showthread.php?56985-Que...

Parman(X) sees less action, but very good at close quarter combat. I usually use him to fill holes or when building an offensive.

Wolverine:
I know Ted considered a Runner on the Wolverine overpowered. I usually use him to bolster SOs/Bunkers; I also find him very useful if your front-line/Deployment Zone is being assaulted too.

Jager:
No doubt you've found the Jager/MG combo effective against spread-out allied infantry.

Baron Tankken:
For me, he's great at clearing out SOs!

If I were going to change anything for these heroes, I'd probably consider giving them one extra health.

One thing, I really like about Rivet Wars is how the rules are relatively free-form; if you wanted to give Wolverine a Runner, so he can keep pace with Infantry, you can do so easily.

Shameless plug: If you play as part of a group you might want to build your own unit cards.

Cheers!

Edit: typo fixes.
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Barry Ween
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Decar wrote:

Parman: As the rules stand, Parman can be used as a shuttle-bus. Generally, this is considered poor-play by the community and now we use him in the Parman(X) variant.


I'm really curious how Parnam left playtesting in his current state. Within 5 minutes of playing the game me and another guy found out how broken he is.

CMON has a terrible QA group.
 
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Tom Hill
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I guess, it's only a problem when you start to consider activating unit's abilities twice during a turn. Generally speaking, this isn't the intent for this type of ability. But it is for things like the Wolverine who bolster defence for example.

Again, no doubt you and your friend can fix Parman pretty easily.
 
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toby
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I haven't felt Parman is overpowered, really, but apparently that's because I evidently misinterpreted the Buff rule on accounta faulty memory.

I recalled it saying something in the Buff Rules about units activating, which it does, but therefore wrongly figured I'd read that Buffs like Parman's only applied to units in the grid with him when he activates.

You're pointing out that per actual RAW Parman can slingshot twice as much stuff per turn as we were playing, making him MUCH more effective.

In our games he was generally pinned to a deployment zone or 1 space in front of a deployment zone, moving 1 or 2 units a turn, and then jumping forward himself when things got desperate. Which was nice, but never felt remotely game-breaking. Yet he STILL felt more effective than anything the blight has.

I kind of like how we were playing it more than the (x) variant (which I'd already seen), but that seems intriguing, too. I guess I feel like they must have considered the notion of units moving 3 spaces forward from a deployment point thanks to Parman when they were balancing the game and scenarios, so it seems like it would be a huge change if suddenly units could only move their usual 1 or 2, per Rapid Assault (X).

In the thread, it seems like there's reference to RA-ing with the Baron. Is there a Blight dude with the same Buff, or is this just referring to the possibility of playing the card that gives RA (2)?

Regarding Jager + MG, honestly 4 range vs. 3 range doesn't seem like that big a deal, and we were always deploying MGs and moving them up 1 or 2 grids to deal with the spread out infantry anyway. I thought about tweaking Jager/Baron/especially Wolverine with an additional life point, but then you're giving heroes almost as much damage capacity as the tanks, which seems goofy. Still, if it weren't for the dissonance that tank comparison causes, I like the idea of the heroes being inherently hard to kill, and 2 hits often doesn't feel very hard.
 
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toby
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Just thinking about the RA (X) variant some more, I will try it out, because thematically, I like the idea that Parman would then most likely be used to cause twice as many units as we were having him ferry to ACTUALLY ATTACK a turn early, which just fits the whole cavalry commander CHARGE! thing perfectly.

OTOH, if his ability were to be made RA (X) but with that buff otherwise interpreted as we had (only applying to the units in his grid when he's actually activated), he'd probably be closest to balanced with the other 3 base game non-plug heroes, and likely see a lot more attacking "action" himself.
 
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toby
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I just finished all 7 pages of that thread. I'm curious where you fall on the Runner bonus or no Runner bonus when using the RA (X) variant debate? I hadn't even considered that Riflemen wouldn't get the duckboard bonus, but then see the guy who was advocating RA (X) arguing that they should just get their base move no matter what.
 
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Barry Ween
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tobyjason wrote:
I just finished all 7 pages of that thread. I'm curious where you fall on the Runner bonus or no Runner bonus when using the RA (X) variant debate? I hadn't even considered that Riflemen wouldn't get the duckboard bonus, but then see the guy who was advocating RA (X) arguing that they should just get their base move no matter what.


FYI, I am an avid Warmachine/Hordes, MERCS, 40K, and many other tabletop mini game. I have had a lot of experience at working with order of operation effects and this isn't really an argument that should be being had. As I show, the rules are very clear.

As no errata has come down this is my two cents:

As with any miniature game, rules on the model supersede the standard rules. So, lets look at the rules in question.

RUNNER (+X) - This unit gains +X move when it
begins its activation on duckboards.

RAPID ASSAULT (X) - When a unit with this
ability activates during the Combat Phase, it
may perform a move of X movement points
before attacking. If it uses this ability it may not
move in the Movement Phase.

Activation is the key word here. As Parnam gives RA to any gridmates he starts the turn with, the moment the non-Parnam unit in the grid activates, ALL abilities that trigger on activation are triggered.

What does this mean? It means that any unit with RUNNER (+X) that is then effected by RAPID ASSAULT (X), who also starts in a duckboard, has an effective movement of R(X)+RA(X).

In the case of Joe infantryman and Parnam, Joe would be able to move R(1)+RA(3)=4.

This is massive movement for infantry. You aren't cheating or playing dirty, the rules are written this way.
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Emile de Maat
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HUAR wrote:
In the case of Joe infantryman and Parnam, Joe would be able to move R(1)+RA(3)=4.


I disagree with this interpretation. Runner gives a +X to the unit's move stat. Rapid Assault gives the unit X movement points, regardless of the unit's move stat. So, the fact that the move stat is increased by Runner doesn't affect Rapid Assault.
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Tom Hill
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Agreed,

The keypoint is that the unit with RA and Runner isn't moving in its movement phase. It's Rapid Assaulting and given X Movement Points.

Edit:
When we play the Parman(X) variant; I grant Rapid Assault equal to the movement that unit has. So a Rifeman in a duckboard may RA(2).
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Gael TACHE
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Runner(+X)is apply in movement phase.
Rapid Assault (+x) is apply in combat phase.
 
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Barry Ween
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So, here is the real issue here: you are as correct as I am.

Why? Timing. There is no official list of how things are timed (that I know of).

Without timing - current rules:
Joe activates for combat; RA is triggered because I want it to be first. Runner then triggers, adding move to RA. As no timing procedures exist (again, that I know of), I, the player, gets to choose the timing of these abilities.

With timing being instituted - how it should be, because I agree with you:
Joe activates for combat; runner triggers, as it is printed on his card it goes first, followed by RA, as it is a buff, giving him 3 movement.

In any case, if I am actually missing where the timing is mentioned, PLEASE, PLEASE tell me so I don't just look like a raving lunatic.
 
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Barry Ween
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Garshell wrote:
Runner(+X)is apply in movement phase.
Rapid Assault (+x) is apply in combat phase.


Wrong; they both apply if activated in combat. Due to the wording of runner, the move bonus is applied at that point and carries over for the rest of the turn.

Edit: I can't type my brain thoughts adequately sometimes...
 
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Emile de Maat
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HUAR wrote:
Without timing - current rules:
Joe activates for combat; RA is triggered because I want it to be first. Runner then triggers, adding move to RA. As no timing procedures exist (again, that I know of), I, the player, gets to choose the timing of these abilities.


I don't think timing has anything to do with it. Runner increases a unit's Move stat. Rapid Assault does not use the Move stat, so it is unaffected by Runner.
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Tom Hill
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I can appreciate how you came to your conclusion. The argument is about ability activation ordering (rather than timing). If Runner was activating in the Movement Phase it wouldn't be an issue. It's because you consider the unit's movement is enhanced during its activation prior to Parman's buff.

Perhaps one could consider the "First Rule", and given that Parman's Buff is applied after Runner, it overrides the runner rule.

I'd rather not simply repeat each others arguments; which others have already had.

I feel this to me becomes a moot point when the Parman(X) variant is applied; especially when X is the movement the Unit was given when activated (eg: including the Runner Bonus). In this case, Parman's RA is allowing the unit to simply move before shooting.

Either way, the solution is pretty simple: decide how you want to play with your opponent or don't play. The core mechanics easily support all the permutations of these rules.
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toby
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Yeah, Tom, I figured you played it that way when playing with the variant, just wanted to check.

I actually agree with HUAR per RAW. Which means either the rules categorically need to be changed so that Runners don't get to move 4 when Parman Rapid Assaults them or Parman needs to be changed so he doesn't give 3 movement to a bunch of stuff that ordinarily only moves 1 or 2.

The (X) Variant seems like the only reasonable solution.
 
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