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Subject: This game scales oddly. Here's a fix. rss

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david funch
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It's not how many cards you remove depending on players. That's nice and orderly with every person you add to the game you subtract a round of play for each phase. That's fine.

I'm talking about the average dollar amount a player has to spend per a round. Take a look at this. (all money is in dollars, not thousands. All money is rounded to the nearest cent value).

Players / rounds / avg money per round
3 / 8 / $2.25
4 / 7 / $2.57
5 / 6 / $2.33
6 / 5 / $2.80

I can appreciate 6 being the highest and 3 being the lowest because in a six player game the bidding will more than likely be higher when it's your turn than in a 3 player game. But look the 4 and 5, it's a mess. Check out this easy fix and how nice and orderly everything is.

Players / Starting money / avg money per round
3 / 20 / $2.50
4 / 18 / $2.57
5 / 16 / $2.67
6 / 14 / $2.80

Look how nice that is. Your starting money decreases at a set rate of $2 per a player added and the difference in your average money per a turn increases by three for each player added (+7 cents, then +10, and finally +13 cents when adding a sixth).

Oh, and if I'm missing something it's because I've never actually played the game.
 
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John Paul Sodusta
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Err... I don't think this game requires any fixes. It's a fast light game of auctions and blind bidding. As long as everyone starts with the same amount of money it's a balanced game. Players will be determining how much money they want to have per round.

Quote:
Oh, and if I'm missing something it's because I've never actually played the game.


Oh man I bit HARD!robot
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david funch
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Ha! But seriously. Isn't that much cleaner? As your number of players increases your starting money steadily decreases AND your average money per a round increases in a nice even curve.

Sure there's not really a need for this, but hey. Why not?
 
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David Fair
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Or maybe PowerGrid?
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I would think you should at least try the game as written. There is no need fo any fix, it scales exceptionally well as-is.
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Jon Ben
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If you happened to read my previous post, I am dumb and mistook the middle column for being the same in both locations.

It is actually an interesting point, there is no elegance in having the monies being different with different numbers of people, it is just necessary. Why then not make the values work out in a nice way? Above that the steady 2 dollar decrease is easy to remember, more so than the seemingly arbitrary decrease in the rules.

Then again I don't think it really matters, since the game does not need to observe this property, and as someone already pointed out this is not a balance issue.
 
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Dave Kudzma
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BeyondMonopoly wrote:
I would think you should at least try the game as written. There is no need fo any fix, it scales exceptionally well as-is.


Bah! David has no clue what he's talking about....and I'm not jsut saying that because he trounced me in Tichu when he taught it to me! =D
 
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david funch
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BeyondMonopoly wrote:
I would think you should at least try the game as written. There is no need fo any fix, it scales exceptionally well as-is.


And now it scales even more exceptionally.
 
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Paul Sauberer
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pothocket wrote:
BeyondMonopoly wrote:
I would think you should at least try the game as written. There is no need fo any fix, it scales exceptionally well as-is.


And now it scales even more exceptionally.


According to your extensive playtesting?
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Psauberer wrote:
pothocket wrote:
BeyondMonopoly wrote:
I would think you should at least try the game as written. There is no need fo any fix, it scales exceptionally well as-is.


And now it scales even more exceptionally.


According to your extensive playtesting?

Nope, just his OCD.
 
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david funch
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spearjr wrote:
Psauberer wrote:
pothocket wrote:
BeyondMonopoly wrote:
I would think you should at least try the game as written. There is no need fo any fix, it scales exceptionally well as-is.


And now it scales even more exceptionally.


According to your extensive playtesting?

Nope, just his OCD.


Yep, plus I did play a three player game since I've posted. We played with $20 each and it was great! Of course no one that played has any other "For Sale" experience to compare it to. By my estimates we had 2.87% more fun than starting with $18.

Think about it like this: You win the lottery twice in one day but for some reason you're only allowed to take one prize. One lottery has a prize of $999 and the other has a prize of $1000. Of course it doesn't really matter which one you choose, but come on. Who wouldn't take the $1000?
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I would do all the things I have ever dreamed of doing. I would love to become a professional whistler.I'm pretty amazing at it now, but I wanna get, like, even better. Make my living out of it.
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pothocket wrote:
By my estimates we had 2.87% more fun than starting with $18.
laugh
 
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Paul Sauberer
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pothocket wrote:

Yep, plus I did play a three player game since I've posted. We played with $20 each and it was great! Of course no one that played has any other "For Sale" experience to compare it to. By my estimates we had 2.87% more fun than starting with $18.


Ah, I see now exactly where you went wrong.

You did not factor the Gemelli variable into your equation, something that was accounted for during the playtesting process.

In actuality, you ended up with 3.86% less fun than you would have had playing the rules as written. This is fun that you will never, ever be able to recover. It is lost forever.

That type of danger and risk is why this sort of thing is best left to the professionals.
 
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Edward
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I understand what the original poster was trying to do here.

I've played this game a lot. The more you play this game, the better a feel you get for exactly how much you should be spending, on average, in each round. The problem with the game as published is that the average amount changes with the number of players. As a result, if you've been playing exclusively four-player games (for example), you'd be somewhat lost if you were thrust into a six-player situation.

Subtle changes to a game when changing the number of players are often unavoidable, but it so happens that in this case they're entirely avoidable; tweaking the initial starting cash for each player can rectify the situation.

David's suggested values are better than the original ones, but they still leave a little variance in. It's actually possible to completely eliminate this variance by using the following initial values:

3 players: $24 each (three $2 and 18 $1 chips)
4 players: $21 each (three $2 and 15 $1 chips)
5 players: $18 each (three $2 and 12 $1 chips)
6 players: $15 each (three $2 and 9 $1 chips)

With these initial values, the average amount each player has available to spend in each round is exactly $3, regardless of how many players there are in the game.

The only potential problem is that the game does not come with enough chips for the five- and six-player configurations. This can be remedied by using poker chips instead (which is something I and many others already do).
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