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Subject: Card Timing rss

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Keith Rudolph
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I can't find any mention of this in the rules but we've run into this a couple of times now where the timing of card actions matters. Specifically, this is in reference to the cards that let you move up the purple marker after placing an explorer on a certain space (for example, move up a purple marker of your choice after placing on a canteen space). Let's say you place an explorer on a canteen space and completely surround a dodo. What's the sequence of events that happens next? Do you first move up the purple marker (move up dodo) and score points for the animal, then capture the dodo? Or do you capture the dodo first, then move up the purple marker (dodo) and score points based on the new number of dodos you have?

I'd think that as soon as you place an explorer on a space of the type indicated on the card, you take the effect, then continue with the rest of the processing for placing that explorer. Just seemed strange to me that timing was never really discussed in the rules so figured I'd ask to get some clarification.
 
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Arkeas wrote:
I can't find any mention of this in the rules but we've run into this a couple of times now where the timing of card actions matters. Specifically, this is in reference to the cards that let you move up the purple marker after placing an explorer on a certain space (for example, move up a purple marker of your choice after placing on a canteen space). Let's say you place an explorer on a canteen space and completely surround a dodo. What's the sequence of events that happens next? Do you first move up the purple marker (move up dodo) and score points for the animal, then capture the dodo? Or do you capture the dodo first, then move up the purple marker (dodo) and score points based on the new number of dodos you have?

I'd think that as soon as you place an explorer on a space of the type indicated on the card, you take the effect, then continue with the rest of the processing for placing that explorer. Just seemed strange to me that timing was never really discussed in the rules so figured I'd ask to get some clarification.

A similar timing question was discussed here. But that thread discussed cards that let you move up a purple marker when you claim a particular animal, so the answer was clearer.

For the case about which you ask, I would say that the purple marker is moved up before you claim the animal tile. I say that because the marker movement is tied to the action of placing the explorer, while the claiming of the animal tile depends on the ultimate position of the explorer and other explorers on the board.

But it really depends on whether the placement of the explorer and the claiming of the tile make up an atomic action that must occur at once before marker movement. Perhaps the designer intended these steps to be atomic, but I don't see anything in the rules (even the German) to suggest that.
 
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ozzy perez
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Arkeas wrote:
I can't find any mention of this in the rules but we've run into this a couple of times now where the timing of card actions matters. Specifically, this is in reference to the cards that let you move up the purple marker after placing an explorer on a certain space (for example, move up a purple marker of your choice after placing on a canteen space). Let's say you place an explorer on a canteen space and completely surround a dodo. What's the sequence of events that happens next? Do you first move up the purple marker (move up dodo) and score points for the animal, then capture the dodo? Or do you capture the dodo first, then move up the purple marker (dodo) and score points based on the new number of dodos you have?

I'd think that as soon as you place an explorer on a space of the type indicated on the card, you take the effect, then continue with the rest of the processing for placing that explorer. Just seemed strange to me that timing was never really discussed in the rules so figured I'd ask to get some clarification.


Am going to go out on a limb here and say that you should capture the animal when applicable, because that action should precede any special ability. Then after capturing said animal, move on to special ability in qustion, move up the marker and score associated point total.
 
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colmmccarthy wrote:
The rules state (emphasis mine):

"As soon as you have completely surrounded a jungle region with explorers, claim the corresponding animal tile and receive victory points."

So, to me that would indicate that claiming the animal tile always takes precedence over the bonus action on the card.

To me, "as soon as" implies "right after".

But the player aid for the cards says, "If you place an explorer on the corresponding landscape space, move any 1 marker up 1 space." The lack of any mention of time here (no "as soon as") suggests to me that the marker moving is directly part of (and not after) the explorer placement - and would thus be before claiming the animal tile.

But I concede that it's all very terse in the rules and the true meaning might have been lost in translation.

colmmccarthy wrote:
Plus, it's Feld. Claiming a dodo (for example) to add to your dodo collection, and then using the card bonus to maximise the dodo score for yourself is a very Feldian thing to do. So I'm sure that's what he had in mind here.

It would be good to get not only a ruling here but some guiding principle for similar cases. Maybe it's as simple as "do it the way that maximizes your score" (kind of "THIS IS GLORY TO ROME"), or maybe it could be "cards are always applied after the basic rules" or "marker movement always occurs after everything else."
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Matt Hindmarch
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You score animals according to the purple marker EACH time you take an animal? Not just at the end of the game? I thought you only score 1 point per animal of the same type during the game.
 
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Matt Hindmarch
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But then what order you move marker vs take animal makes no difference.
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ozzy perez
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MHindmarch wrote:
But then what order you move marker vs take animal makes no difference.


It makes a big difference because you score the total # of animals based on the marker you move.. you have 3 dodos's and you move the dodo marker, you score 3 pts.. you move it with 2 dodo's.. you score 2.
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Matt Hindmarch
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Ah, I see.
 
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colmmccarthy wrote:
MHindmarch wrote:
You score animals according to the purple marker EACH time you take an animal? Not just at the end of the game? I thought you only score 1 point per animal of the same type during the game.

No, you score 1 point per animal during the game and # of animals x multiplier at end game. But you still want that 1 extra point for picking up your animal - hence the original question.

I think that there are three ways to score animals:

1. When you take an animal, you score the number of points indicated on the space from which you took it.

2. When you move up a marker, you score one point for each animal you have of the corresponding type. (That goes to the original question here - relative timing of when you move a marker versus when you take an animal - for the specific card in question, which lets you move a marker when you place an explorer in a specified location.)

3. At the end of the game, each animal scores the number of points indicated by the corresponding marker.
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ozzy perez
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gillum wrote:
colmmccarthy wrote:
MHindmarch wrote:
You score animals according to the purple marker EACH time you take an animal? Not just at the end of the game? I thought you only score 1 point per animal of the same type during the game.

No, you score 1 point per animal during the game and # of animals x multiplier at end game. But you still want that 1 extra point for picking up your animal - hence the original question.

I think that there are three ways to score animals:

1. When you take an animal, you score the number of points indicated on the space from which you took it.

2. When you move up a marker, you score one point for each animal you have of the corresponding type. (That goes to the original question here - relative timing of when you move a marker versus when you take an animal - for the specific card in question, which lets you move a marker when you place an explorer in a specified location.)

3. At the end of the game, each animal scores the number of points indicated by the corresponding marker.


Correcto
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colmmccarthy wrote:
gillum wrote:

2. When you move up a marker, you score one point for each animal you have of the corresponding type. (That goes to the original question here - relative timing of when you move a marker versus when you take an animal - for the specific card in question, which lets you move a marker when you place an explorer in a specified location.)

...and 2 points if you have the large token for that animal (but only for the large token)

Right - I meant "each animal" and not "each animal token" - if you have the large token, you have two of those animals!
 
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Maarten D. de Jong
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While @Spiel, the game was explained to me that all such special actions were enacted after surrounding and grabbing the animal. It is also the simplest and most consistent explanation (cf. the action which gets you an extra resource cube upon placement of your explorer).

In other words: first take the animal off the board, score it, then move up a purple marker and score whatever animal's purple marker you moved up.
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Keith Rudolph
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cymric wrote:
While @Spiel, the game was explained to me that all such special actions were enacted after surrounding and grabbing the animal. It is also the simplest and most consistent explanation (cf. the action which gets you an extra resource cube upon placement of your explorer).

In other words: first take the animal off the board, score it, then move up a purple marker and score whatever animal's purple marker you moved up.

Awesome. If that's how it was taught at Essen this year, that's how I'll handle it until I'm told otherwise. Thanks!
 
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Maarten D. de Jong
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Cool. Random-Internet-guy-says-so-cred!

Seriously, I have been to Spiel, and the game has been explained to me thusly. Honestly.
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cymric wrote:
Cool. Random-Internet-guy-says-so-cred!

Seriously, I have been to Spiel, and the game has been explained to me thusly. Honestly.

With all due respect, didn't someone post here that they were actually going to ask the designer (or had asked him)? Did that post get deleted, or am I imagining things?

I don't doubt that the game was explained that way at Spiel. But I have certainly been to (other) conventions were game explanations were in error ...
 
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Simon Barnes
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On my summary card (numbered 1) it says "If you place an explorer on a space showing the corresponding symbol: move any 1 marker up 1 space, and eventually get victory points"

I took that as meaning you did other things (such as take animals) first before eventually getting your points for moving the marker up.

Also it seems in the spirit of the game:

"Special Functions typically either modify the standard game rules or improve the strength of an action"
 
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Mik Svellov
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simon_j_barnes wrote:
On my summary card (numbered 1) it says "If you place an explorer on a space showing the corresponding symbol: move any 1 marker up 1 space, and eventually get victory points"

I took that as meaning you did other things (such as take animals) first before eventually getting your points for moving the marker up.

Also it seems in the spirit of the game:

"Special Functions typically either modify the standard game rules or improve the strength of an action"

It is an translation error from the German native rules writer: "eventually" should write possibly = you might get VP.

Every time you move a marker up, you will score VP based upon the animal tokens you have of that type. If you move up a marker of a type you don't have any animal tokens of, you will score zero VP.
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