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Subject: Cyclades vs. Kemet is a False Comparison rss

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Jason Nopa
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People who haven't played either game and don't know the specifics for each game.

From the outside, they look like similar games. You have units, you place them on a board, you move them and fight.

Until you play each game do you realize that one is all about combat and area control, while the other is about building an economy and bidding correctly to generate resources.

I actually really like both games because I find them equally interesting for different reasons. They're very cool... and incorporate a lot of interesting play mechanics in both games. Lots of fun and worth playing both unless you prefer one style of game over another...
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Brandon
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bretai70 wrote:


You have people asking which game they should buy (Kemet) vs. the other (Cyclades)


The answer is still Kemet.

bretai70 wrote:
It's like saying that an orange is better than an apple.


It's a close race, but false!

P.S.: I'm looking for something with citrus. Should I get an apple or orange? Please answer without comparing.
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andrew mason
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I'm not trying to say which is better. That is not the point. The point is they are not related. We can compare Kingsburg and Dungeon Lords, but it would make no sense. Just like the relation between Kemet and Cyclades, for which there is none.

But yes both games are just fine, but for different reasons.

Yes they are both Citrus, but again that's too general. Cyclades and Kemet are both board games, that does not make them comparable in a meaningful way, since it's too broad.
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Chris Wray
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I agree that they are different in many respects, but I see the comparison:

1. Both are hour, hour-and-half Eurogame-War Game hybrids.
2. They're both medium-light to medium weight.
3. The creature element is a central mechanic of both games.
4. Some of the artwork and components are very similar, especially the creatures.

I think they'll broadly appeal to the same crowd, and I think they both fill a similar space in a collection. Many people I've taught either game immediately compares the game to the other... and these aren't folks that are on this site or particularly board-game savvy.
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Brandon
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The games are competing for someone's free time.

A comparison can absolutely be made.
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andrew mason
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I understand your points, but again that just isn't enough.

1)Lots of games take an hour plus, so what.
2)Innumerable games are mediumish weight.
3)Creatures are in a ton of games.
4)How does artwork, similar or not change how the game plays. It's aesthetic and cosmetic.
 
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andrew mason
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Wow! Let's widen it even further by making someone's free time the issue. Your strawman keeps getting bigger. Thank you for proving what I originally said about making things too general.
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Patrik Severinsson
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I think it's fair to compare them. Before you know how the games plays they both seem like dudes-on-a-map games with a mythological theme.

People know the games are different and they want to know what makes them different. That's why the comparisons are done, to find out the differences of two games that, on the surface, seem similar.

Kemet and Cyclades are hardly the only different games that are beeing compared. A quick look in the "Recommendations" section of the forum will show that. I think people tend to compare games that either have similar theme or similar mechanics. And do games really need to be similar in order to be compared?
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andrew mason
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Helikoputtrik wrote:
I think it's fair to compare them. Before you know how the games plays they both seem like dudes-on-a-map games with a mythological theme.

People know the games are different and they want to know what makes them different. That's why the comparisons are done, to find out the differences of two games that, on the surface, seem similar.

Kemet and Cyclades are hardly the only different games that are beeing compared. A quick look in the "Recommendations" section of the forum will show that. I think people tend to compare games that either have similar theme or similar mechanics. And do games really need to be similar in order to be compared?


Sorry about answering your question with a question here. But would one compare a Honda Civic, to a E-Type Jaguar? They are both cars, but hardly a reasonable choice to be making as one vs. the other. Clearly they are not in the same category. No the games need not be similar, but if not we could then say to buy Eclipse over Cyclades, or King of Tokyo over Smallworld.
 
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Brandon
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bretai70 wrote:
But would one compare a Honda Civic, to a E-Type Jaguar?


Perhaps.

And I'd start by evaluating my needs and go from there.
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Patrik Severinsson
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bretai70 wrote:
Helikoputtrik wrote:
I think it's fair to compare them. Before you know how the games plays they both seem like dudes-on-a-map games with a mythological theme.

People know the games are different and they want to know what makes them different. That's why the comparisons are done, to find out the differences of two games that, on the surface, seem similar.

Kemet and Cyclades are hardly the only different games that are beeing compared. A quick look in the "Recommendations" section of the forum will show that. I think people tend to compare games that either have similar theme or similar mechanics. And do games really need to be similar in order to be compared?


Sorry about answering your question with a question here. But would one compare a Honda Civic, to a E-Type Jaguar? They are both cars, but hardly a reasonable choice to be making as one vs. the other. Clearly they are not in the same category. No the games need not be similar, but if not we could then say to buy Eclipse over Cyclades, or King of Tokyo over Smallworld.

Nobody(?) would compare a Honda civic with a E-Type Jaguar. As you say, they are not in the same category. It's easy to tell that just by looking at them. That is not the case with Kemet and Cyclades though. They seem similar (based on first impression, theme and objective of the game) until you play them or give the rules a thorough read.

Eclipse would not be a good suggestion if a person was comparing the games because they are interested in a fancy looking dudes-on-a-map game with a mythological theme. And I believe that's the reason why most people are comparing Kemet and Cyclades.
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Joe Rogers
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They are both different games and I love them both (although I must admit, for my tastes, a slight edge to Cyclades). Because of the similarities already mentioned and the fact that there are crossover expansions, I like to say the two games exist in the "same world" (one in Greece and the other in Egypt)the way Batman and Superman exist in the "same world" with Metropolis being not too far from Gotham (Superman could get to that city if he needed to). I am hoping Matagot will create a third game that is different but perhaps uses another culture's mythology to form a trilogy of games.
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Nisses Clan Skryre
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Andrew,

reasons have been given. The fact that you denounce them as "too general" doesn't change the fact.


1. Both are hour, hour-and-half Eurogame-War Game hybrids.
2. They're both medium-light to medium weight.
3. The creature element is a central mechanic of both games.
4. Some of the artwork and components are very similar, especially the creatures.

Add to that the fact they are from the same designer, and both have a mythology feel.

That means for people that don't know much about 1 of the 2 games, that it sounds familiar.



And I know just so little about cars to actually compare a Honda to a Jaguar... which is the point here I think. Don't judge people from your point of view & knowledge, judge them from theirs.

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Jman Z
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I only find kemet and cyclades the same in terms of components. Both have large (Awesome!) creatures and small (imo poorly made) soldiers.

Game play and structure feels nothing alike for me.


I absolutely love kemet where i only find Cyclades 'alright', but i suspect that is because of how my group plays cyclades.

The crossover kit is ensuring that cyclades stays in my collection


Also i have not noticed that these 2 games are compared or even said to be alike.
 
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Gláucio Reis
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Nisses wrote:
Add to that the fact they are from the same designer, and both have a mythology feel.

I think you meant "publisher".
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Sean Ramirez
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So OP, exactly how similar do games have to be to warrant comparison?
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Chris Wray
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bretai70 wrote:
I understand your points, but again that just isn't enough.

1)Lots of games take an hour plus, so what.
2)Innumerable games are mediumish weight.
3)Creatures are in a ton of games.
4)How does artwork, similar or not change how the game plays. It's aesthetic and cosmetic.


You did conveniently leave out what I consider the most important characteristic: the fact that they are Euro Game-War Game Hybrids. That's still a pretty rare genre, especially for the BGG 1000.

I haven't played as many different board games as others on here (maybe 150-ish different ones), but Cyclades and Kemet the only medium length, medium weight, Euro-Game, War-Game hybrids I've played. And that's leaving out the mythololigical theme and aesthetics.

If you have better comparisons, I'd love to hear them. What do you consider most similar to Kemet? To Cyclades? It is easy to tear down the comparisons of others... let's see you build your own.
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Wim Leenaerts
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For players looking for a comparison between both games, my two pennies.

Differences
Action selection: In Kemet you have 5 action tokens to choose 5 actions out of 9, in Cyclades you bid on a god who grants you specific actions.
In my eyes this is the biggest difference between both games and what makes Cyclades the better game: the bidding can get really tense near the end of the game. In Kemet every player could potentially do the exact same actions and any action they choose (provided they have enough 'money') during a round, in Cyclades this is impossible.

Fighting battles: In both games you add up your troops to get your initial attack number, but in Kemet you add the value of a 'battle card' and possible 'Divine Intervention'cards plus the battle strength of a creature. In Cyclades you roll an attack die and add that value to your troops-value plus possibly the battle strength of The Minotaur or Chairon.

Winning: In Kemet you win by collecting 8 (or 10) victory poins, in Cyclades the first one to build two metropolises wins.

Attacking vs economy: as mentioned in the first post: Kemet focuses heavily on attacking, while Cyclades has a little bit more focus on economy because you need money for the bidding phase. Attacking is also much easier in Kemet, because in Cyclades attacking someone requires you to build your army (using Ares), build a fleet (using Poseidon), and then move your army to a connected island (using Ares again). This will probably take you several turns (it can be done in two but that doesn't happen a lot) if other players are bidding for Ares and Poseidon too.

Use of creatures: the creatures in Cyclades are one time use only and therefore they aren't used very often (they look cool enough standing next to the board though cool), the creatures in Kemet on the other hand are an essential part of the game because they are permanent and will therefore always be used. conclusion: creatures in Cyclades = a little bit gimmicky, creatures in Kemet = essential.

Similarities:
Kingmaking: since both games have an aspect of attacking each other to gain points, both games suffer from Kingmaking. In Kemet you can actively take away points from the leader by attacking him, in Cyclades the other players can (and will) gang up on the player who is amassing the greatest army for his winning move or who desperately needs that one god for his winning move. Sometimes players can be in the position of being able to decide which player will win. This is the only negative aspect of these games because this can potentially drag the games too long, especially Cyclades has this. In Kemet the permanent victory points prevent this a little bit.

Direct player interaction: Both games have a very high degree of direct player interaction: in Kemet through the fact that attacking each other is the major way of getting points, in Cyclades because of the bidding and also the attacking each other. This is what draws me so much to these games: the

Dudes on a map: Both games have very cool miniatures and in both games the miniatures are different for each player which I think is very neat.

Area control: because of the 'dudes on a map' aspect of both games they also have an aspect of area control. In Kemet you try to control the temples to gain points, in Cyclades you try to control the most profitable islands. In both games you control
Creatures:

Moving troops/fleets: The way troops move in Kemet and Fleets move in Cyclades is the same: you can take a certain amount of troops/fleets, move them as much fields as allowed but while moving you can pick up other troops/fleets you come across or leave a desired number behind on a certain area.

Fighting battles: both games involve attacking other players by invading their territory and counting up the amount of troops/fleets both players have + adding possible modifiers (a die in Cyclades or battle cards in Kemet, creatures etc). I personally like battling in Cyclades more because the die makes it more tense, but the battling in Kemet is more tactical because of the battle cards you play which are discarded until you've played all your 6 cards, choosing wisely which card to play is key.

Theme: both are games which take place in an ancient culture (Greece and Egypt) and involve mythological creatures, gods and magic.

Production quality: both games have very high production quality with sturdy tiles, quality cards, great plastic miniatures, fantastic art, nice boards and boxes and all other components are great quality too. Cuddos to Matagot for this!

Conclusion: while there are many similaraties between the games (especially the feel while playing) there are enough differences to warrant buying both games if you already own one of them. I have both of them and enjoy them tremendously (I've played Cyclades a dozen times, Kemet 4 times up till now) but slightly favor Cyclades because of the tense bidding phase and the building of your islands. I've also played Cyclades with 15 different players and all of them always had a great time, none of them disliked it up till now (fingers crosses). I think that's saying something.
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Darren Mac
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bretai70 wrote:


Sorry about answering your question with a question here. But would one compare a Honda Civic, to a E-Type Jaguar? They are both cars, but hardly a reasonable choice to be making as one vs. the other. Clearly they are not in the same category. No the games need not be similar, but if not we could then say to buy Eclipse over Cyclades, or King of Tokyo over Smallworld.


I wish Matagot would get in the car business and make J3H (or whatever). I could really use some Jaguar features in my Honda Civic.
 
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andrew mason
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Im not sure how anything is a false comparison. Maybe its not a good comparison, but the comparison exists, and therefore it muse be a true comparison.

Im sorry you dont agree with the comparison, but its still something to think about. I can compare any two games I want. I mean, would it make sense comparing kemet to uno? No, but I could tell you the similarity and unsimilarities to each. And then I can give you an opinion to which I prefer and why. These games are close enough where a comparison makes a lot of sense.
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andrew mason
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sircaradoc wrote:
Im not sure how anything is a false comparison. Maybe its not a good comparison, but the comparison exists, and therefore it muse be a true comparison.

Im sorry you dont agree with the comparison, but its still something to think about. I can compare any two games I want. I mean, would it make sense comparing kemet to uno? No, but I could tell you the similarity and unsimilarities to each. And then I can give you an opinion to which I prefer and why. These games are close enough where a comparison makes a lot of sense.


By all means, do whatever you want. One thing stands clear however, is that people don't seem to be able to recognize logical fallacies. A simple Google search on false comparison should highlight this. Furthermore when this game came out all kinds of people kept saying "Try Kemet, it's like Cyclades!", over and over again. Well I and many others did play it, and the reaction from everyone after 1 play, 2, 5, etc, was that Kemet was nothing like Cyclades. To everyone I know, it's different enough to not be fairly compared with any game. Using broad comparisons, and ridiculous semantics to try to make an argument only serves to devalue what is unique about the game and the argument itself.

But if that's what people want to do, so be it. By all means continue with this discussion if you all wish to, but my point is made and dozens that I spoke to about this seems to get it. If others don't, well....okay then.
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David desJardins
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bretai70 wrote:
To everyone I know, it's different enough to not be fairly compared with any game.


Saying that it's different is, in fact, a comparison.
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andrew mason
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DaviddesJ wrote:
bretai70 wrote:
To everyone I know, it's different enough to not be fairly compared with any game.


Saying that it's different is, in fact, a comparison.


The subject was about false comparison. We are not lining it up next to one game like Cyclades like so many are doing, as if it was the benchmark by which to measure it.
 
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Chris Wray
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bretai70 wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
bretai70 wrote:
To everyone I know, it's different enough to not be fairly compared with any game.


Saying that it's different is, in fact, a comparison.


The subject was about false comparison. We are not lining it up next to one game like Cyclades like so many are doing, as if it was the benchmark by which to measure it.


Oh, I see... you would have had this thread be called "Kemet is so unique it can't be compared to any game!"

Got it. That makes complete sense...

Wait... no it doesn't. Not even a little bit.
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