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Roll for the Galaxy» Forums » Rules

Subject: Galactic Salon rss

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Eric Hymowitz
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So the Galactic Salon...

Some developments say things like "gain $1 at the end of this phase"

But Galactic Salon just says "Ship: gain 1 vp"

1 vp per shipping phase? 1 vp when I ship? 1 vp per shipment? Trade? Consume? What's the answer?
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Wei-Hwa Huang
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Galactic Salon's power is activated once each Ship phase, regardless of which player selected Ship and regardless of any of your other powers or your shipped goods. You do not need to ship any goods to activate Galactic Salon's power. You must activate its power if you have Galactic Salon in your tableau; it is not optional. You may choose when to activate its power (although in practice whether you activate it at the start of the phase, the end of the phase, or in between makes no difference).
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Ric
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So exactly the same as Galactic Salon from Race then
 
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Tom Lehmann
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hymie wrote:
Galactic Salon just says "Ship: gain 1 vp"

1 vp per shipping phase?

Yes. Ship is a *phase*. When Ship occurs, gain 1 VP. (All other choices involve interpreting "ship" to mean something it isn't.)

You need not have dice assigned to the Ship phase to use this power, as noted in Development Powers, p. 11.

rules wrote:
Q: Do I need workers assigned to a phase to trigger powers that occur in it?
A: No.
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Eric Hymowitz
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Thanks!
 
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Wei-Hwa Huang
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talismancer wrote:
So exactly the same as Galactic Salon from Race then


Not quite. Galactic Salon from Race happens on the Consume phase (numbered IV), Galactic Salon from Roll happens on the Ship phase (numbered V). Race does not have a Ship phase, and Roll does not have a Consume phase (but the word "Consume" can be used to refer to something one can do during the Ship phase).

Certainly the two abilities are analogous, but they are not exactly the same because the games have different structures.
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Mark Smalley
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So, why are there exceptions? I would assume that the reason some of the phase activated tiles (Galactic Salon, etc.) include a timing mandate, and other similar tiles do not, is because of game balance. However, I am often very incorrect in not-so surprising ways.
 
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Dan Blum
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gooble wrote:
So, why are there exceptions? I would assume that the reason some of the phase activated tiles (Galactic Salon, etc.) include a timing mandate, and other similar tiles do not, is because of game balance. However, I am often very incorrect in not-so surprising ways.


I'm not sure what you're asking. Exceptions to what? And Galactic Salon doesn't have anything that I can interpret as a "timing mandate."

If you mean to ask why some tiles that give phase bonuses specify that they happen at the end of the phase and some don't, it is because the ones that do depend on game state (dice in your citizenry, dice on worlds, etc.) and the ones that don't, don't. If a bonus depends on state you need to know when to check that state as it could change during the phase.
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Wei-Hwa Huang
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gooble wrote:
So, why are there exceptions? I would assume that the reason some of the phase activated tiles (Galactic Salon, etc.) include a timing mandate, and other similar tiles do not, is because of game balance. However, I am often very incorrect in not-so surprising ways.


Game balance is rarely the reason. Avoiding strange interactions and making gameplay feel "natural" is usually the reason. There are six types of timing on the developments:
* Immediate effects (happens when the development is completed)
* Reassign powers (happen once during the Reassign phase, at a player's discretion)
* Permanent effects (lasts until the end of the game -- these are things like discounts, rearranging tiles in stacks)
* Once-per-phase effects (happens at the end of the phase)
* Once-per-"event" effects (happens at the end of the "event" -- the "event" might be something like "Trading a good", "completing a world", etc.)
* Duration-of-phase effects ("Virtual dice" act like this -- you get to use those dice any time during the phase, but not more than once and they disappear at the end of the phase).

Mixing these up inconsistently would often feel unnatural and weird. For example, consider Galactic Demand, which gives you $2 each time you Trade from a Novelty world. We could write it so that it's an "end of phase" effect, so you might trade two goods, remember that you did, and then give yourself $4 at the end, but why bother? Most players will give themselves the extra $2 as they're trading.

Or take Investment Credits, which makes your developments cost one less*. We could have made that duration only happen when you're putting developers, so your 5-cost development is 5-cost during the Explore phase but 4-cost during the Develop phase. But that's generally not how people will think of it. (*Technically, we don't talk about the cost of the tile at all, we just mention that it requires one fewer developer to complete.)

Galactic Salon doesn't have an explicit timing mandate to keep the text simple, as I felt it was unlikely to cause problems if players did it at other times. If you feel it needs one, you are free to restrict yourself to taking the VP chip at the end of the phase. If we ever do do an expansion where the timing of Galactic Salon's VP chip matters, we'd probably write in the rulebook that Galactic Salon's VP chip should be at the end of the phase.
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onigame wrote:
[q="gooble"]If we ever do do an expansion[...]

Please do! I and the special other enjoy this game so much. Gives us the feeling Race gave us, but with a bit more 'game' to it, and more enjoyable things to do along the way (for us, personally). Expansions - and dev support along the lines of Race - would make us super happy. But we don't demand it, it'd just be very welcome.

We hope this not to become a one-off, as we think there's such quality directly equatable to Race, and thus as equally deserving of expansions.
 
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Mark Smalley
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tool wrote:
And Galactic Salon doesn't have anything that I can interpret as a "timing mandate."


My parenthetical arrangement made that confusing. GS is one of the ones (and from what I can tell, it's the only one) that don't.

tool wrote:
If you mean to ask why some tiles that give phase bonuses specify that they happen at the end of the phase and some don't, it is because the ones that do depend on game state (dice in your citizenry, dice on worlds, etc.) and the ones that don't, don't.

"Galactic Investors", "Robot Surveyors", "Free Trade Association", and "Merchant Guild" all say "...end of this phase", yet have no game state dependency other than requiring a phase.
"Galactic Salon's" power is similar to each of those, sans the mandate on timing.



onigame wrote:
Galactic Salon doesn't have an explicit timing mandate to keep the text simple, as I felt it was unlikely to cause problems if players did it at other times.


Wei-Hwa, thank you for the clarification. I was just curious why this tile was slightly different than the other acquisitional phase-bonuses.

Thanks for the awesome design!
 
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Tom Lehmann
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gooble wrote:
"Galactic Investors", "Robot Surveyors", "Free Trade Association", and "Merchant Guild" all say "...end of this phase", yet have no game state dependency other than requiring a phase.

"Galactic Salon's" power is similar to each of those, sans the mandate on timing.

Note that Space Tourism and Technology Unions also lack a timing specification (presumably because it doesn't particularly matter when during the relevant phases you use these powers).
 
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Wow guys, its a wording thing. 'End of phase' is mentioned when actions during the phase can alter the state of things relating to the reward bonus. Galactic Salon doesn't have this, as do some others. All for logical simplicity-related reasons that are common sensical in clarity.

GS gives you a point when ship happens. You dont have to ship anything or take an action to get the point, thus the point of the phase that you take your point doesnt matter.

Its strange how some gaming groups can see this tile and understand quickly why its different, while others found it to be a confusing issue. Insisting wording be changed for 'consistency', just because you're feeling confused and having trouble internalising certain mechanisms in the game, is strange.
Especially strange to see BGG users on one end, as they're what you'd expect to be more experienced gamers who would understand perfectly normal and logical game design things like this.
 
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Jon Backhouse
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Apologies for the thread necromancy, interestingly we had this come up last night. We got to what became the last turn due to the last Victory points chips being taken.the player with the card wasnt able to take any chips because others were taking them for consuming. We decided that as it was not clear on who takes the chips, we referenced the rule book ruling of turn order by the number on our starting planet. The game ended two players tied on 54.... :-). Victory went to the player without salon on most resources etc. The end of phase option listed above makes sense, as does the method we played. Great game though :-)
 
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Dan Blum
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Fear13 wrote:
Apologies for the thread necromancy, interestingly we had this come up last night. We got to what became the last turn due to the last Victory points chips being taken.the player with the card wasnt able to take any chips because others were taking them for consuming. We decided that as it was not clear on who takes the chips, we referenced the rule book ruling of turn order by the number on our starting planet. The game ended two players tied on 54.... :-). Victory went to the player without salon on most resources etc. The end of phase option listed above makes sense, as does the method we played. Great game though :-)


I'm afraid you still played it incorrectly - when the VP pool runs out, the remaining VP chips are added so that everyone can get their chips. Since the remaining chips include all the 10-point chips no one will be shorted.
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John
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tool wrote:
I'm afraid you still played it incorrectly - when the VP pool runs out, the remaining VP chips are added so that everyone can get their chips. Since the remaining chips include all the 10-point chips no one will be shorted.

And if you run out of 10VP chips then use beer bottle tops or something else (I've no idea if it's possible for 51 chips to get consumed in the last round of a 5p game!)
 
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Jon Backhouse
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Noted... we missed that somehow. Just was playing that when they were gone they were gone. :-) cheers for that though
 
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Stephen Michael Hickey
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Cobbs wrote:


Its strange how some gaming groups can see this tile and understand quickly why its different, while others found it to be a confusing issue. Insisting wording be changed for 'consistency', just because you're feeling confused and having trouble internalising certain mechanisms in the game, is strange.
.


The only thing that's strange is that you shun consistency as a means that would actually clarify it for all.

Really weird!
 
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Wei-Hwa Huang
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Steve99 wrote:
Cobbs wrote:


Its strange how some gaming groups can see this tile and understand quickly why its different, while others found it to be a confusing issue. Insisting wording be changed for 'consistency', just because you're feeling confused and having trouble internalising certain mechanisms in the game, is strange.
.


The only thing that's strange is that you shun consistency as a means that would actually clarify it for all.

Really weird!


Specifying the timing for which the timing doesn't matter would not clarify it for all, because then you would have players saying "wait, why does this power mention timing? When would timing matter? I must be interpreting something else wrong because I think that timing doesn't matter."

There are at least two ways to be "consistent" here -- either we can be "consistent" by always mentioning the timing, or we can be "consistent" by only mentioning the timing when it matters.

In a more general sense, we mention some details but don't bother mentioning details when they don't matter. The Contents section mentions that the home world and faction tiles have grey corners, but we don't mention that the VP chips have blue corners. The Setup section tells you to put the dice in the center of the player area and to give each player a dice cup, but we don't tell you where you should put the rulebook or the game box. The diagrams in the booklet have the important parts labeled and the unimportant parts not labeled, as opposed to labelling everything and letting the reader figure out for themselves which parts are more important.

It might fit your sense of consistency by explicitly mentioning all parallel structures, but there are other senses of consistency at play here.
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Niels Muñoz
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Cobbs wrote:
Its strange how some gaming groups can see this tile and understand quickly why its different, while others found it to be a confusing issue.


I have been successful in growing the love for Roll For The Galaxy in my game group recently and yesterday we played our first two 5-player games. For the first time, we hit Galactic Salon and although we have quite some "wordy" people in our group, confusion hit the table. Now that I have read the clarification by Wei-Hwa Huang, I conclude we played it the wrong way and one player won 2 games in a row adding 1VP for each worker he activated in the Ship phase (both when consuming and when trading as in our logic, both Trade and Consume occur in and belong to the Ship phase).

Strangely, the confusion originated from a discussion about Alien Research Team when players with a strong drive for logic started searching for consistency in wording in other tiles played out on the table. After reading the comments on GS, I assume that AST gives its owner +1 tile (and never more that 1) from the bag at the end of each Explore phase whether he has assigned workers in this round to that phase or not.

So, given that this thread exists and without wanting to deepen the discussion on wording consistency, the key question is how (new) players could be helped interpreting Race tiles correctly without a doubt so they can fully enjoy the game without frustration and rule book down time?

@Wei-Hwa Huang: Is the following statement correct?

Development Powers are triggered in a given round if the phase corresponding to the Development Power is activated by any player in that round. A player without dice assigned to that phase in that round will nevertheless profit from Development Powers present in his/her tableau. (e.g. Galactic Salon: If phase Ship is activated in a round, the player with a tableau containing Galactic Salon will gain 1VP in that round for his Galactic Salon Development Power even when none of his dice have been allocated to phase Ship in that round)

If I extend the GS logic, is it then true that a player with Robot Surveyors (Settle: +$2 at the end of this phase) in his tableau receives 2 credits at the end of the Settle phase in each round with an activated Settle phase, even when that player has no dice assigned to Settle? Does this same logic apply to:

Merchant Guild (Produce: +$2 at the end of this phase)
Free Trade Association (Ship: +$2 at the end of this phase)
Galactic Investors (Develop: +$2 at the end of this phase, including the phase in which you complete this)

Thank you in advance for providing some final clarification!
 
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mazinho wrote:
ART gives its owner +1 tile (and never more that 1) from the bag at the end of each Explore phase whether he has assigned workers in this round to that phase or not.

Correct. Alien Research Team's other effect -- +$1 if at least one Alien Explorer was used by its owner to *Scout* during that phase -- requires the player to have assigned at least one Alien worker that round to Explore and then having used that worker to Scout.

Quote:
is it then true that a player with Robot Surveyors (Settle: +$2 at the end of this phase) in his tableau receives 2 credits at the end of the Settle phase in each round with an activated Settle phase, even when that player has no dice assigned to Settle?

Correct.

Quote:
Does this same logic apply to:
Merchant Guild (Produce: +$2 at the end of this phase)
Free Trade Association (Ship: +$2 at the end of this phase)
Galactic Investors (Develop: +$2 at the end of this phase, including the phase in which you complete this)

Yes.
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mazinho wrote:
the key question is how (new) players could be helped interpreting Race tiles correctly without a doubt so they can fully enjoy the game without frustration and rule book down time?


I don't know if this will help your group, but one general rule of thumb you might be able to use is to look at the black part of the icon on the power:

If the black thing is a square that shows just the phase icon, then it's a power that applies to the phase, which means that either it's something you do just once that phase (such as receiving money or dice) or something that changes how you interpret something that phase (such as cost discounts).

If the black thing is a rectangle that shows the phase icon and something else (dollar sign, wrench, or hex), then it's something that can happen multiple times that phase, as long as you do that related action.

Specifically, compare Trade Levies with Galactic Salon:



Trade Levies shows a white hex and a white ship in a black rectangle, therefore this is something you can do each time you do a hex-thing (Consume) during a ship-thing (Ship).

Galactic Salon shows only the white ship in a black square, therefore this is something you only do once during a ship-thing (Ship). Well, you do it each time there's a ship-thing (Ship), but there's at most one Ship per round.
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