Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
26 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

BattleLore (Second Edition)» Forums » Variants

Subject: Possible modification for Archers rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Raymond Morehouse
United States
Redlands
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
Some controversy, but generally agreed that both archer units are less than they could be.

Here's a fix I have been thinking about: Introduce the ranged mechanic from Memoir 44 but with a twist.

Daqan
Same stats:
Change Double Shot to read: At range 3 roll 3 attack dice; at range 4 roll 4.

Add: Foresters: While in a forest hex if attack dice would be reduced, only reduce by one.

Uthuk
Same stats

But at range 1/2 add one to attack.

Game justification:

For the Daqan, the current usefulness of Double Shot is minimal because two dice are ineffective against so many units and terrain effects that ignore one or more dice. Also, because they can't move it negates most Daqan strategies that favour mobility. This change makes moving archers around the rule and gives the added bonus of using forest terrain tactically.

For the Uthuk, there is more incentive to be aggressive with archers and move them close to get poison hits if nothing else. They need less of an upgrade than the Daqan because their rolls have a 1/2 chance of taking effect over the Daqan 1/3.

Thematic Justification
Daqan archers now have a Robin-Hoody character. They do well running from trouble and hiding in the woods. The Double Shot now can be thought of as firing multiple salvos of arrows in a single attack with longbows built for long range engagement. Once the enemy closes, however, the skittish yeoman becomes less efficient.

Uthuk archers are firing short bows with snakes, literally snakes, as arrows. It makes sense that they would be better at shorter distances. They are very motivated to get in close.

Thoughts and tweaks welcome!
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Fi Gnuts
United States
Reno
Nevada
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yikes! I think the Daqan archers rolling 4 dice at 4 hexes away and 3 dice at 3 hexes away is way too strong, especially considering that they can be hard to get close to if they are on the back lines. And, what if the Uthuk have a command tent? In that case, they can't ever reach the Daqan archers!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Lewis
United States
Thornton
Colorado
flag msg tools
NFHS Football & Basketball
badge
Dread Our Coming, Suffer Our Presence, Embrace Our Glory (Solonavi War Cry)
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
beefisok wrote:
And, what if the Uthuk have a command tent? In that case, they can't ever reach the Daqan archers!

While I agree that the changes proposed in the OP are far too strong, I'm not sure what you mean by the quoted line here. How does the presence of the Uthuk command tent prevent them from reaching the Daqan archers?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Raymond Morehouse
United States
Redlands
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
Why is this perceived as far too strong? Most units in the game have 3 attack.

What if the Daqan unit only had 3 at 4 range? And change Forestry to something like: Entering Forest hexes has no effect on movement.

Better?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Lewis
United States
Thornton
Colorado
flag msg tools
NFHS Football & Basketball
badge
Dread Our Coming, Suffer Our Presence, Embrace Our Glory (Solonavi War Cry)
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Soldier wrote:
Why is this perceived as far too strong? The attack dice?

Most units in the game have 3 attack. What if the Daqan unit only had 3 at 4 range?

4 dice at range is extremely strong, especially since if they are on a hill, they can shoot over units. Even 3 dice at range is pretty strong, especially with Double Shot where they would basically get 6 dice at a target (and unless that target is in a building or other damage-reducing space, it's almost the same as rolling all 6 or 8 dice at once!)

While I don't think the Archers are the strongest on either side, they were never meant to be the crux of your army. I find them useful to act as snipers, whittling down units before your melee units engage so that they can more easily wipe them out. Using them as your primary killing units is probably not good strategy, but I think they are decent as support.

I can see why people want to change them, but I think making them do more damage at range is not the answer (and thematically, I don't think it makes sense that they do MORE damage the farther away the target is).
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Raymond Morehouse
United States
Redlands
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
Yeah, I meant to be clear that the increased attack REPLACES Double Shot as it is currently written. Maybe more clear to eliminate that ability completely.

Also, thematically there are good reasons for higher damage at long range. Historically, longbowmen could be devastating at a distance but terrible close in. Remember the scene that scene in Braveheart where the archers are overrun?

The problem right now with both sides is that there is basically little reason to choose archers at all. Even as "sniper" units they perform quite poorly...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Garrett
United States
Laredo
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I always choose Viper Legion because poison is fun.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Lewis
United States
Thornton
Colorado
flag msg tools
NFHS Football & Basketball
badge
Dread Our Coming, Suffer Our Presence, Embrace Our Glory (Solonavi War Cry)
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I guess we'll disagree on the premise. I don't always pick them, but on many scenarios I take one or two, and I've rarely had them be completely useless.

In any case, the Braveheart example is more about "not being able to shoot at close range" than more damage at a distance, and in this game, I don't know if it's completely apt as a lot of the distance stuff is abstracted quite a bit.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Fi Gnuts
United States
Reno
Nevada
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
sigmazero13 wrote:
beefisok wrote:
And, what if the Uthuk have a command tent? In that case, they can't ever reach the Daqan archers!

While I agree that the changes proposed in the OP are far too strong, I'm not sure what you mean by the quoted line here. How does the presence of the Uthuk command tent prevent them from reaching the Daqan archers?


My bad, I am still very new to this game, and haven't played with the command tent yet. I thought the rules were that during the game, your units could not move past the line with the command tent. It seemed really weird, but I see you just can't deploy units in a line past the command tent. Very different. Again, my mistake.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Lewis
United States
Thornton
Colorado
flag msg tools
NFHS Football & Basketball
badge
Dread Our Coming, Suffer Our Presence, Embrace Our Glory (Solonavi War Cry)
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
beefisok wrote:
sigmazero13 wrote:
beefisok wrote:
And, what if the Uthuk have a command tent? In that case, they can't ever reach the Daqan archers!

While I agree that the changes proposed in the OP are far too strong, I'm not sure what you mean by the quoted line here. How does the presence of the Uthuk command tent prevent them from reaching the Daqan archers?


My bad, I am still very new to this game, and haven't played with the command tent yet. I thought the rules were that during the game, your units could not move past the line with the command tent. It seemed really weird, but I see you just can't deploy units in a line past the command tent. Very different. Again, my mistake.

No worries. Yeah, that rule would make Command Tents pretty lame (especially if BOTH sides used them!)

The main purpose was so you can't just hide the command tent in the back corner for an extra 5 deployment points. You have to put them somewhere that they are at least a little vulnerable.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Fernando Robert Yu
Philippines
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I find archers good as is...units to hold your rear objectives which can support the other troops at range..no modifications needed IMO...
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
The Fiend
United States
Avon Lake
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
Some controversy, but generally agreed that both archer units are less than they could be.


I thought so too at 1st but then found the Daqan Archers to be very deadly as is. The ranged combat you speak of in MEMOIR (Horrible game yuk) is for Artillery isn't it?

I absolutely LOVE the improvements Fantasy Flight made in the rules over DOW's Memoir and Battlelore but here's a solution to your problem, the Fantasy Flight scenario generator.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite.asp?eidm=247...

Come up with your own scenario and special rules for it (I did). Just play test it a few times to make sure it works out balanced. Some rules I came up with: 1)Archers must fire at any enemy next to them (ZOC issues) 2)Infantry can fight out of the woods with no reduction 3)If attacking units on hills and not on another hill or flying, you are -1 die.

I'd be interested in playing a scenario you create as you have some interesting ideas.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Raymond Morehouse
United States
Redlands
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
All combat in Memoir is ranged, and involves different values at different distances.

I also do not care for Memoir, but mostly because there are so many useless command cards that really slow down the game.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
The Fiend
United States
Avon Lake
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
I also do not care for Memoir, but mostly because there are so many useless command cards that really slow down the game.


The worst is when you're getting attacked and there's no way to defend yourself if you don't have that sector's cards. BATTLELORE 2 easily corrects this by letting you burn a card. Instead of useless I found that some cards were completely over-powered especially if the same player kept drawing them, BATTLELORE 2 has no such Command Cards.

If FF bought it, re-worked it like they did BATTLELORE 2, it would become playable and fun.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Cuesta
Ecuador
Guayaquil
Select One...
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Soldier wrote:

Daqan
Same stats:
Change Double Shot to read: At range 3 roll 3 attack dice; at range 4 roll 4.

Add: Foresters: While in a forest hex if attack dice would be reduced, only reduce by one.



I think yeomen archersas written are stringer than your option.

As long as they don't move they attack with 4 dice, unless attacking buildings where the first damage of each attack is removed, which makes sense since arrow volleys are pretty useless against enemies within buildings. they get to benefit the most when attacking fron forests. Anyone attacking them reduce their attack value to 2 and they still attack twice for a total of 4 dice.


Soldier wrote:

Uthuk
Same stats

But at range 1/2 add one to attack.


The poison ability is already awesome. Its true that the viper legion has a weak attack on its own, but every subsequent mellee attacks increase their chance to hit from 33% to 50% per die and ranged attacks improve from 17% to 33%.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
JB L1Z1X
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I think a lot of players miss that. Once a unit is poisoned any unit attacking it can commit Lore results for damage. Poison is phenomenal.

That said, this game doesn't reward Warhammer style gun lines. Arhcers are support units not an anchor.

It also doesn't really reward trying to table your opponent. The game is about area control. Archers excel at holding important back line objectives. If they lose models, they are still just as good at this job. Honestly what I want from Archers is Lore and Retreats (or poison if I'm not Daqan.) Damage is incidental.Red Archers have 2/3 good results and Daqan have 1/2, hopefully firing twice. Those are good odds! It's unfair to discount Lore results as being useless.

Also people forget that the Daqan archers can turn into casualty generating monsters with the right spell support/Command cards.

Desperate Ploy and Rune Blade? Enchanted Arrows and Darken the Skies? Darken the Skies and Assault? Desperate Ploy and Assault? Just Assault? (Assault is really good for archers.)

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
The Fiend
United States
Avon Lake
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
Arhcers are support units not an anchor.


What would be a good idea is different dice for different units. This way you could apply realistic results on the different types of dice tailored for it's type of unit (flying/archer/melee/etc.).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Morgan King
United States
Philadelphia
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
I think the archers are generally fine as is - the Viper Legion's odds of poisoning are too low to be reliable, though, which gives the Daqan archer's double shot an advantage in terms of utility. Somebody's got to be the weakest unit, right?

Were I to slightly adjust the Viper Legion, however, I would have them be able to commit the Pierce result to damage, the Lore result to deal damage to poisoned units (as normal), and to be able to commit the Heroic result to either inflict poison or to spread poison to a unit adjacent to an already poisoned unit.

edit: on further consideration, I think they just need a slight tweaking, this one making secondary Heroic results not useless, and in incentivizing using more archers to combo off of each other.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Lewis
United States
Thornton
Colorado
flag msg tools
NFHS Football & Basketball
badge
Dread Our Coming, Suffer Our Presence, Embrace Our Glory (Solonavi War Cry)
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Jimzik wrote:
Quote:
Arhcers are support units not an anchor.


What would be a good idea is different dice for different units. This way you could apply realistic results on the different types of dice tailored for it's type of unit (flying/archer/melee/etc.).

In a way, that's already kind of true for ranged vs melee. Even though they do use the same dice, they use different standard "hit" symbols, and don't downgrade when they are weak.

Of course, some of the symbols do carry over for both, but the effect of those symbols (especially Heroic) depends on the actual unit in terms of what it does

I think having abilities on the cards that trigger on certain symbols, and being different for each unit, does kind of make it feel like the dice are different for each unit, even if just in small ways.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Raymond Morehouse
United States
Redlands
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
I dunno guys...

After many games now I am consistently disappointed with the archers, especially Daqan.

A major balance issue with this game is the number of units who use the Heroic result.

Daqan have 1 (golems) Uthuk have 4.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Morgan King
United States
Philadelphia
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
That's because the Uthuk are better individual units, and the the Daqan are better in combination. A Daqan archer using double shot and firing on a unit flanked by the Riverwatch Riders rolls 6 attack dice, if you manage to both flank and block retreats with your Riders, the archers are rolling 6 dice and damaging on 2 faces.

With the new Daqan expansion there's 3 more units that use Heroic results.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
The Fiend
United States
Avon Lake
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
After many games now I am consistently disappointed with the archers, especially Daqan.


Obviously you've never decimated or been decimated by their fire. I've been on both sides but I've played over 100 games and maybe that shows you all the possibilities. Daqan Archers, in cover/on a hill, are to be FEARED by any Uthuk venturing too close.
The Viper Legion's poison rarely works out as the unit poisoned usually sheds it the next turn. There's been many instances of a combined attack either not producing poisons or producing them and them no subsequent Lores.
Initially I thought the Uthuks edge in Heroic actions was too much but I came up with scenarios for a set campaign and it's been won by both sides.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
JB L1Z1X
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Jimzik wrote:

The Viper Legion's poison rarely works out as the unit poisoned usually sheds it the next turn.


That works out great. I just rolled -2 enemy lore. That's a good result. It's also a strong incentive for the enemy to activate that specific unit which may not be their best choice. I love poison so much.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Morgan King
United States
Philadelphia
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
It's so rare that a poisoned unit wasn't going to die in the next combat anyway, though - in my experience it's very rare to usefully poison a unit. I don't spend the lore to remove it, generally, because if I'm ordering the unit I'm still going to be hitting for full damage first and probably expecting to take a lethal hit back - they've already been hit by the archers, and I find it rare that happens first, much less happens first and successfully poisons.

It's great when it happens to work out, but it's far too unreliable to build a strategy around - it's just too hard for the Uthuk to get more than 2 dice for an Archer attack, as opposed to the 4 attack dice of Double Shot, or the 6 the Yeoman archers get if the target is flanked. Poison's just not even close to as useful.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
The Fiend
United States
Avon Lake
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
It's great when it happens to work out, but it's far too unreliable to build a strategy around - it's just too hard for the Uthuk to get more than 2 dice for an Archer attack, as opposed to the 4 attack dice of Double Shot, or the 6 the Yeoman archers get if the target is flanked. Poison's just not even close to as useful.


And that's part of the counter-balance of the Uthuks having so many more Heroic actions.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.