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Container: The Second Shipment» Forums » General

Subject: Warehouse/Factory restriction cards rss

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Matt Daniels
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I'm putting together a DIY edition of Container for myself and I thought, "Hey, while I'm at it I might as well DIY the expansion". But I've come across some problems....

I can't find any clear pictures of the restriction cards and I therefore can't make my own. Also I'm not sure how the deck of restriction cards should be ordered.

If someone could post some pictures and help me out with the ordering of the cards that would be great. Or you could just send me a pdf of the rules whistle
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Steve Bachman
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Pretty clear violation of copyright, isn't it?
 
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Edward Uhler
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Ward wrote:
Pretty clear violation of copyright, isn't it?


Not if for personal use I don't think.
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Steve Bachman
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eapeas wrote:
Ward wrote:
Pretty clear violation of copyright, isn't it?


Not if for personal use I don't think.

Whomever is scanning and sending the rules and components isn't doing it for their personal use, are they?
 
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Edward Uhler
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Ward wrote:
eapeas wrote:
Ward wrote:
Pretty clear violation of copyright, isn't it?


Not if for personal use I don't think.

Whomever is scanning and sending the rules and components isn't doing it for their personal use, are they?


So, you mean, like most other game listings have here on BGG? The rules and pics of the components? Where's the problem again?

There's always one. *sigh* shake
 
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Steve Bachman
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eapeas wrote:
Ward wrote:
eapeas wrote:
Ward wrote:
Pretty clear violation of copyright, isn't it?


Not if for personal use I don't think.

Whomever is scanning and sending the rules and components isn't doing it for their personal use, are they?


So, you mean, like most other game listings have here on BGG? The rules and pics of the components? Where's the problem again?

There's always one. *sigh* shake

There's always one what?

There is a distinct difference between posting scans as a resource for replacement of lost components and posting them as a means to make a copy of an unowned game. And when the bulk of the product is a set of rules, the issue is even more exacerbated.
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Ward wrote:
Pretty clear violation of copyright, isn't it?


So sue me.

Not that it IS me, but you get my drift.

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Steve Bachman
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enoon wrote:
Ward wrote:
Pretty clear violation of copyright, isn't it?


So sue me.

Not that it IS me, but you get my drift.


There's always one. shake
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Ward wrote:
enoon wrote:
Ward wrote:
Pretty clear violation of copyright, isn't it?
So sue me.

Not that it IS me, but you get my drift.
There's always one. shake
And thousands of lawyers to act on behalf of the copyright holder if she/he/they want to protect their interests.

And a game that's not going to get re-printed any time soon.

And people scalping their copies after either copying it (if they like it) or deciding they don't like it.

And there are fools who will pay the price.

And people making their own PnP copies.

No big deal.

Me? I've got all I need, except the time to make the PnP. And no-one got scalped, and no-one got harmed, and no-one (including the copyright holder) has lost a single penny. It cost me a small deck of cards.
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Steve Bachman
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enoon wrote:
Ward wrote:
enoon wrote:
Ward wrote:
Pretty clear violation of copyright, isn't it?
So sue me.

Not that it IS me, but you get my drift.
There's always one. shake
And thousands of lawyers to act on behalf of the copyright holder if she/he/they want to protect their interests.

And a game that's not going to get re-printed any time soon.

And people scalping their copies after either copying it (if they like it) or deciding they don't like it.

And there are fools who will pay the price.

And people making their own PnP copies.

No big deal.

Me? I've got all I need, except the time to make the PnP. And no-one got scalped, and no-one got harmed, and no-one (including the copyright holder) has lost a single penny. It cost me a small deck of cards.

Sure, it's no big deal to promote a culture where laws are meaningless unless you can afford a lawyer to enforce them on your behalf. No harm in that at all, right? gulp
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Ward wrote:
Sure, it's no big deal to promote a culture where laws are meaningless unless you can afford a lawyer {or an Army or the CIA} to enforce them on your behalf. No harm in that at all, right? gulp
That's the American Way isn't it? The italics are mine. Cast ye not the first,second any stone ...

Laws only constrain behaviour when they can be enforced, or someone can be bothered to enforce them, or someone sees an advantage in enforcing them, or the other party can't find a way around them or doesn't care about them anyway. Take your pick. That's the American Way.

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Edward Uhler
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Ward wrote:
enoon wrote:
Ward wrote:
enoon wrote:
Ward wrote:
Pretty clear violation of copyright, isn't it?
So sue me.

Not that it IS me, but you get my drift.
There's always one. shake
And thousands of lawyers to act on behalf of the copyright holder if she/he/they want to protect their interests.

And a game that's not going to get re-printed any time soon.

And people scalping their copies after either copying it (if they like it) or deciding they don't like it.

And there are fools who will pay the price.

And people making their own PnP copies.

No big deal.

Me? I've got all I need, except the time to make the PnP. And no-one got scalped, and no-one got harmed, and no-one (including the copyright holder) has lost a single penny. It cost me a small deck of cards.

Sure, it's no big deal to promote a culture where laws are meaningless unless you can afford a lawyer to enforce them on your behalf. No harm in that at all, right? gulp


You can't be this obtuse.

He asked for pics of the cards &/or someone to upload the rules. Nearly every game on this site has those two things on their game page in the files & photos section.

What would be the problem with doing this for this one? Is there a super secret rule that says Container: The Second Shipment is not allowed to have those two things?

Come on, man. shake
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Steve Bachman
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eapeas wrote:
He asked for pics of the cards &/or someone to upload the rules. Nearly every game on this site has those two things on their game page in the files & photos section.

What would be the problem with doing this for this one? Is there a super secret rule that says Container: The Second Shipment is not allowed to have those two things?

If the rights holder, whether the publisher or designer, stated that they do not want the rules posted, would that be sufficient reason for users to respect the rights of that entity?

The question of posting the rules to this game has been asked several times already. The publisher posts the rules to almost all, if not all, of their other games here. Do you think this game got overlooked or do you think it is intentional? I strongly believe the latter.
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Ward wrote:
If the rights holder, whether the publisher or designer, stated that they do not want the rules posted, would that be sufficient reason for users to respect the rights of that entity?
It depends.

It depends on why they didn't want them posted. It depends on whether they could demonstrate ownership satisfactorily. That doesn't mean just saying "I own the rights".

If they didn't want them posted because they had plans (at least short- or medium-term plans) to monetise their IP, I'd respect their request.

If they didn't want them posted, gave no good reason, and had no plans to monetise their IP over the next few years (because of e.g. arcane legal squabbling) , I'd have little issue sharing them. Whether I'd share them publicly or privately is another issue.

I can hear the howls and rasp of sharpening pitchforks as I write ...

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Edward Uhler
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Ward wrote:
eapeas wrote:
He asked for pics of the cards &/or someone to upload the rules. Nearly every game on this site has those two things on their game page in the files & photos section.

What would be the problem with doing this for this one? Is there a super secret rule that says Container: The Second Shipment is not allowed to have those two things?

If the rights holder, whether the publisher or designer, stated that they do not want the rules posted, would that be sufficient reason for users to respect the rights of that entity?

The question of posting the rules to this game has been asked several times already. The publisher posts the rules to almost all, if not all, of their other games here. Do you think this game got overlooked or do you think it is intentional? I strongly believe the latter.


Sure. Get the now defunct company (or whomever owns the rights) to state that and I'd stand by their request. Without that, it's not anyone's job to infer why something is or isn't posted.

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Steve Bachman
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eapeas wrote:
Ward wrote:
eapeas wrote:
He asked for pics of the cards &/or someone to upload the rules. Nearly every game on this site has those two things on their game page in the files & photos section.

What would be the problem with doing this for this one? Is there a super secret rule that says Container: The Second Shipment is not allowed to have those two things?

If the rights holder, whether the publisher or designer, stated that they do not want the rules posted, would that be sufficient reason for users to respect the rights of that entity?

The question of posting the rules to this game has been asked several times already. The publisher posts the rules to almost all, if not all, of their other games here. Do you think this game got overlooked or do you think it is intentional? I strongly believe the latter.


Sure. Get the now defunct company (or whomever owns the rights) to state that and I'd stand by their request. Without that, it's not anyone's job to infer why something is or isn't posted.


Do you have a sticker on your car that explicitly states that you do not give permission for anyone to enter the car and drive off with it? How about your wallet, in case you set it on a counter or something?

If someone gets your credit card information, do you have a way for that person to know that you explicitly forbid it's use by them?
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I count THREE straw men.
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J C Lawrence
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The core questions would seem to be:

-- Whether a rights owner must explicitly state if they want their property disseminated or not? (My answer: No)

-- Is lack of use of or lack of ongoing claim to intellectual property enough to return said property to the public? (My answer: No)

-- To what degree "But I want it!" overcomes the rights of the property owner, whether or not the property owner is present and whether or not they express their preferences? (My answer: Not at all)

-- Are intellectual property rights a valid concept in our society? (My answer: No, but we use them and I adhere to the concept anyway)

In this line, I suggest that the OP:

-- Acquires a copy of Container and its expansion as printed by Valley Games.

Or:

-- Contacts Kevin Nesbitt and Franz-Benno Delonge's estate and acquires the rights to the game and expansion from them.

Or:

-- Waits until those rights expire and the game enters the public domain.
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Malachi Brown
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clearclaw wrote:
-- Waits until those rights expire and the game enters the public domain.

Given the current limits of the human lifespan, it is not clear that this is a viable option for anyone involved in this discussion.
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Vadim Medvinskiy
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Ward wrote:

Do you have a sticker on your car that explicitly states that you do not give permission for anyone to enter the car and drive off with it? How about your wallet, in case you set it on a counter or something?

If someone gets your credit card information, do you have a way for that person to know that you explicitly forbid it's use by them?


In all these cases I will lose something tangible.
Now, please answer one simple question: which tangible losses will be incurred by Valley Games, if rules will be posted online?
 
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J C Lawrence
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Valley Games are not the current license holders. Kevin Nesbitt and Franz-Benno Delonge's estate are, and yes, they lose something quite tangible with such an action.
 
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Vadim Medvinskiy
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clearclaw wrote:
Valley Games are not the current license holders. Kevin Nesbitt and Franz-Benno Delonge's estate are, and yes, they lose something quite tangible with such an action.

Can you say what exactly will they lose? Car? Wallet? Money?
 
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No, not with great precision because I don't know precisely how that intellectual property expresses value to them and how they assess that value. As for the value they lose, one fairly clear point is the dilution of value due to increased availability. In short, it arguably makes the property less saleable as the global audience of buyers is reduced.
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Vadim Medvinskiy
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Quote:
No, not with great precision because I don't know precisely how that intellectual property expresses value to them and how they assess that value.
In other words, you can't name any tangible loss, but you are sure that there will be some? Great way of thinking.
Quote:
In short, it arguably makes the property less saleable as the global audience of buyers is reduced.
You can't make something unavailable for sale be more or less saleable.
 
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Hickname wrote:
Quote:
No, not with great precision because I don't know precisely how that intellectual property expresses value to them and how they assess that value.


In other words, you can't name any tangible loss, but you are sure that there will be some? Great way of thinking.


First, I don't need to name a tangible loss. Second, reduction of market value of assets is a tangible loss.

Quote:
Quote:
In short, it arguably makes the property less saleable as the global audience of buyers is reduced.


You can't make something unavailable for sale be more or less saleable.


Sure you can. If making the IP freely available reduces demand for the IP, then making the IP available also reduces the viability of selling products based on that IP, and that is a clear and tangible loss.
 
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