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Subject: Kickstarter Exclusives Poll rss

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Joshua Christensen
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Poll: Kickstarter Exclusives
1. Do you like and/or approve of Kickstarter exclusives?
Yes
no
2. Do you dislike Kickstarter exclusives but feel they are a necessary evil?
yes
no
I dislike them and they are not necessary
3. If you chose yes to either of the two previous questions would you change your answer/s if the game was trying to be a serious competitive game?
My answers would remain the same
I'd change my answers
NA
      165 answers
Poll created by ClanNatioy


Okay so this is a topic that gets talked about from time to time but I wanted to take a poll on the subject. I personally hate kickstarter exclusives and think they are awful for games to have.

For this game we know what 5 of the 7 exclusives do and they fill a niche that a lot of gamers enjoy. They are the disruption/annoy faction. A ton of people like this style of play and if they discover this game late or don't have the money for it now or for any other reason they are denied being able to play with these characters. It feels super awful to me and I don't get how you can justify exclusives, that's just me though. It seems a ton of people really enjoy exclusives.

So please take the time and cast your vote and I'd love to hear your thoughts.
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cinos
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The reason I dislike them is that it always feels like I'm getting less of a game if I missed a kickstarter and was then looking into picking it up once released.

In my mind, the perks for backing a kickstarter should be that it's cheaper than buying at retail, and you get the game earlier than anyone else.

That's it.

Stretch goals should unlock stuff that every game released will then have. It's just off putting to find a game that looks relatively interesting, to then do some research and find that if I'd known about it a year ago I could have gotten all of these, gameplay-enhancing, extras.

Looking at Rum and Bones, for instance. I initially backed this but have since pulled out. However, should I change my mind later down the line, after the kickstarter has ended, then the base game is only going to come with 10 heroes, which you will use all of in one single game. The longevity just isn't there, without all the exclusive heroes they're throwing into the campaign.

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Kirk Mathes
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I'm okay with them as long as they aren't things that affect the game play much.
Something like alternate art versions of characters or something like that. But when you have a character you'd really like to play, but can't because you didn't get in on the kickstarter in time, that's just annoying.

I think it also depends on the company running the kickstarter. If some small indie company is self publishing their very first game, and are using some cool exclusives to get the word out and generate interest, I think that's a little different than a company who's ran several hugely successful kickstarters, and is guaranteed to fund within the first hour. There it just feels like they are just trying to milk it, especially if it's in anyway meant to be a competitive game.

The other side to that is, once you do offer exclusives in one kickstarter, if you stop in the next, you'll lose fan-base.

I guess I feel that at some point your game should stand on the merit of it's actual game-play and not the freebies given away to supporters.
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Wesley & Celine Van den Bosch
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cinos wrote:
It's just off putting to find a game that looks relatively interesting, to then do some research and find that if I'd known about it a year ago I could have gotten all of these, gameplay-enhancing, extras.


This... We missed the Zombicide season 1 & 2, Arcadia Quest, Rivit Wars, ... Kickstarters and if you look at all the extra exclusive items that came with it, it just makes you cry soblue On the other hand, I love getting freebies and those are usually exclusives. I don't know how feasible it would be if they offered the now-exclusives for free to the backers and released them for sale when the game hits the stores? That way they reward backers but still make them readily available for others if they're willing to pay a bit extra (and not the absurd prices that they're going for on Ebay just because they were exclusives). This way you get the same result as you get now apart from the fact that the after kickstarter distribution is in hands of the company and out of the hands of scalpers (although the last is debatable because a company can be a scalper too )
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Donny Behne
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CMON's exclusives policy is better than most. Everything exclusive is offered at conventions. This is far better than companies who don't offer them in any form. As far as exclusives go, I'm fine with them. I'm fine not having them. I'm also fine tracking them down. It's something you deal with and, if you don't like it, don't buy it. That's the only response businesses understand - speaking with your wallet.

I didn't respond to your poll because your questions are poorly written for a poll and your answer choices are limited. Sorry.
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Tim Bailey
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cinos wrote:
The reason I dislike them is that it always feels like I'm getting less of a game if I missed a kickstarter and was then looking into picking it up once released.

It is my experience that if you buy the game later via a retail outlet, you are likely to get it significantly cheaper than the kickstarter price, so while you may get less of a game, you are likely to save anywhere between 33% and 50%. Heck, in the case of Sedition Wars you can save over 70%!


Now to the OP - I love kickstarter exclusives. I got into Zombicide pretty darn late, only barely catching Season 3's kickstarter. I feel in love with the game and had to buy Seasons 1 and 2 both retail. I have no bonus survivors, no kickstarter exlusives, but I still LOVE the game, and my enjoyment of the game is very high, regardless of weather or not I have 10+ extra pop culture survivors. Granted I'd LOVE to have them, but I'm not really feeling awful about not having them yet. Maybe someday at a convention I'll be able to pick some of them up.

Now if Zombicide turned into a tournament type game where everyone had to bring their own survivor, I could see that being an issue.... but if a game does that, then they simply need to adjust their kickstarter exclusives. Imagine MAGIC the Gathering as a kickstarter? The exclusives would have to be deck boxes, sleeves, life counters, even a play mat. Fluff things that don't help you to beat another player better. In the case of board games where one person provides the entire game, it all boils down to fluff, because everyone has access to everything that's in the box.
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tony garcia
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I only dislikes exclusiveness if I didn't pledge in kickstarter and when the game is funded I realise is a great game... Then I think: why the f... i didn't pledge and got all those amazing miniatures I won't be able to get ever?? :-)

Conclusion: I think exclusive miniatures is a good hook to get players financing the game and therefore making a greater game from the start
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Joshua Christensen
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kelann08 wrote:

I didn't respond to your poll because your questions are poorly written for a poll and your answer choices are limited. Sorry.


Answering all of them wasn't necessary and the first question is extremely straight forward. How would you have worded the questions and what options would you have given for possible answers?


Most of the talk has been about you personally miss a kickstarter. Does any one feel bad about being apart of a kickstarter with exclusives that others can't have?

Let's say you were to play your kickstarter copy of Rum & Bones with a friend and they loved it and wanted to get a copy for themselves but you then had to tell them that the wouldn't be able to get these 7+ characters because s/he wasn't apart of the kickstarter? I mean doesn't that kind of suck?

I'm all for giving kickstarter backers a deal. Instead of making the exclusive characters exclusive just give them for free and then make them into an expansion for retail sale after the kickstarter, also make sure kickstarter backers get their copies before the game goes to retail.
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Wesley & Celine Van den Bosch
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Crabbok wrote:
It is my experience that if you buy the game later via a retail outlet, you are likely to get it significantly cheaper than the kickstarter price, so while you may get less of a game, you are likely to save anywhere between 33% and 50%. Heck, in the case of Sedition Wars you can save over 70%!

That might be true in the States but certainly not here in Europe/Belgium. Zombicide#3 for instance is definitely going to be cheaper through KS than a local retailer.
Taking ZC2 as example: KS 150$ vs local ~180$ and that's without the complimentary Zombie Dogs and KS extras
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Tim Bailey
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I and I wrote:
Crabbok wrote:
It is my experience that if you buy the game later via a retail outlet, you are likely to get it significantly cheaper than the kickstarter price, so while you may get less of a game, you are likely to save anywhere between 33% and 50%. Heck, in the case of Sedition Wars you can save over 70%!

That might be true in the States but certainly not here in Europe/Belgium. Zombicide#3 for instance is definitely going to be cheaper through KS than a local retailer.
Taking ZC2 as example: KS 150$ vs local ~180$ and that's without the complimentary Zombie Dogs and KS extras

I was not aware of that. Sorry to hear.
 
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Duncan Idaho
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Crabbok wrote:
cinos wrote:
The reason I dislike them is that it always feels like I'm getting less of a game if I missed a kickstarter and was then looking into picking it up once released.

It is my experience that if you buy the game later via a retail outlet, you are likely to get it significantly cheaper than the kickstarter price, so while you may get less of a game, you are likely to save anywhere between 33% and 50%.


While there are a few games that I paid more for through KS than they ended up at retail (not counting games that ended up being garbage and were discounted into oblivion), I have usually paid a lot less in the KS than I would have at retail. And, outside of Sedition Wars, I believe that I have saved SIGNIFICANTLY with any games that featured miniatures.

People always say this ("It's cheaper later!"), but my own experience is the exact opposite.
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Chris Smith
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I don't like them, and I don't think they're at all necessary.

That doesn't mean I won't back a game with them mind, I just wish they'd make them available to people afterwards.

Its' more annoying when they have post-project shipping charges...then I won't back in the first place =P
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Crabbok wrote:
It is my experience that if you buy the game later via a retail outlet, you are likely to get it significantly cheaper than the kickstarter price, so while you may get less of a game, you are likely to save anywhere between 33% and 50%. Heck, in the case of Sedition Wars you can save over 70%!


*AND* you don't have to go through the waiting and drama! You'll even get the game! Who here pledged for Up Front??

I no longer buy non-miniature boardgames through KS. Kazume Goddess was solicited to retailers for pre-order at the same prices as their KS. Bootlegger expansion was less expensive on sale at MM than through the KS (though only by three bucks and the sale price was several months later). MM's Daily Deal had a Tide of Iron expansion at less than the KS price, though with no stretch goals. If you absolutely positively must have a particular KS'ed game, sure, KS. But if you're only casually interested in a KS game and already have a long list of other games you're interested, you're better off at a sale. Black Friday was *very* good to me -- scored Skull and Shackles for $30, and a Zombicide Gaming Night #1 kit for EIGHT bucks. (Zombicide and Myth were great per-mini values, and Dungeon Saga certainly provided a lot of game content, but, to agree with Duncan, these are miniatures boardgames.)

Nowadays, I'm backing miniatures-based KS. Miniatures are generally harder to find at a discount at the retail level, much less enough to reach shipping thresholds. Some of the Reaper Bones miniatures are THREE times as expensive at MM vs. the KS, although the prices for the larger figures are slightly better. You can't buy Dwarven Forge game tiles anywhere except eBay. (Might as well plug Dungeon Stone's KS, $100 for 80 game tiles, 25 doors, and 16 bases. Only 11 days left.) Games Workshop doesn't even let OLGS show a picture or even describe the GW models they have for sale!

Oh, and, yeah, shipping charges *and* currency exchange fees. It ain't cheaper when you're paying another ten bucks!
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Joe Kiyoshi
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My take on Kickstarter Exclusives is this:

The exclusivity is the huge discount.

$100 for a full game and 10 additional minis at no cost. Awesome. Other people will have to pay more on top of paying for all 10 of the new minis.

I still feel like I got a great deal, people who missed out still feel like they can collect everything. The company still gets lots of money.
 
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Donny Behne
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ClanNatioy wrote:
kelann08 wrote:

I didn't respond to your poll because your questions are poorly written for a poll and your answer choices are limited. Sorry.


Answering all of them wasn't necessary and the first question is extremely straight forward. How would you have worded the questions and what options would you have given for possible answers?



Quote:
1. Do you like and/or approve of Kickstarter exclusives?


Where's the room for "don't care"? It's a valid response. Liking and approving of them are not interchangeable either. They are two different things warranting two different questions.
 
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Steve R Bullock
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Kickstarter exclusives are for one purpose - to drum up business.

Not to make the game better.

Once you get past the mind-set of having to be a completest, you can easily just look at a KS game, shrug, and wait for the core game when it comes out in 12 months or so at a reduced price.

All the extras are pretty and tempting, but if the game cannot stand alone on what comes in the box, then it is not worth buying.

Just my own thinking, and also why I quit "doing" Kick Starters almost a year ago, and have no interest in returning to the madness.
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Mike Adachi
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kelann08 wrote:
CMON's exclusives policy is better than most. Everything exclusive is offered at conventions. ... As far as exclusives go, I'm fine with ... tracking them down. It's something you deal with and, if you don't like it, don't buy it. That's the only response businesses understand - speaking with your wallet.


1) Available at conventions makes them unavailable to the majority of gamers who lives outside America. Well, perhaps they have a booth in Essen...
2) If you're fine with feeding eBay scalpers then you're a strange strange person and very much so not representative of anything but yourself. (Not an ad hominem, just an honest opinion.)
3) "If you don't like [second hand markets and prices], don't buy it" "Speaking with your wallet ... is the only response businesses understand". The second-hand market comes after the Kickstarter and your closed wallet will only indicate that you didn't want to buy the game, not why you didn't want to. Further, companies need to be told you WOULD have bought but chose not to; that is, you must make your shut wallet visible for your vote to have effect.

---

As a side note: Please do consider that there is no incentive for a producer to sustain a second-hand market of discontinued goods (regardless of why they were taken out of production); no money from it comes to them. If it has any effect it is to later turn certain groups away from buying in to a game at all.
 
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Theodore Martinovich
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Here is my 2 cents.

If your going to make them "kickstarter exclusive" then do that. But in following expansions, dice tower promo's, or whatever, offer those older exclusives. It's money in the bank. Or run a solitary campaign for people to get older "kickstarter exclusives" even if they are more costly... It would STILL be on kickstarter. I want to get into arcadia quest but looking at ebay prices for the KS exclusives (around 350$ for the set) I will never do that. It's a huge barrier to entry. CMON (and others)could stop this money grabbing and put that money in their own pockets and give people like me, who are new to board gaming, a chance to get some of that content... At a reasonable price that is still a mark up from what it was but a serious mark down from ebay.
 
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The exclusives are fine. They're an appropriate reward for people who risk their own money on a game that no one has ever played, won't show up to your door for perhaps a year or more (CMON is somewhat faster, but still...), and in many cases they are paying full-retail (or close to it). If you wait until it shows up at CSI, you can often buy it cheaper than the Kickstarter, especially during a sale.

Exclusives are a legitimate means of giving extra content to those who took extra risk. Buying the game without exclusives is NOT the same as buying "half of a game" as some claim.

For example, I wish I had some of the exclusives from season 1 of Zombicide, and if there was monthly CMON Organized Play at my LFGS and Dave the Geek were widely known as the over-powered zombie-killer, then that would be different. As it stands, however, the extras are just that--extra, and the game is easily played and enjoyed without them.

I think some people take the completionist philosophy to a pathological level. They would rather have no game at all than purchase a very good game, knowing that there was a Promo Card out there in the world with alternative art on it.

Personally, I think that the exclusives that I have (and DON'T have) make my collection unique. I can't afford every exclusive that is offered. I never buy exclusives with the intent of scalping them later for a profit. I buy what suits my personality and budget, and I'm proud of my unique game that I had a hand in customizing.
 
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Squaty wrote:
I think some people take the completionist philosophy to a pathological level. They would rather have no game at all than purchase a very good game, knowing that there was a Promo Card out there in the world with alternative art on it.


Well that's a rather insulting view. Maybe some people don't want to support companies that engage in predatory marketing practices ("Buy it now or we'll never sell it to you!"), and also have such a variety of games available to them that they can decide to pass on one that, in almost all likelihood, isn't the greatest game of all time because they'd rather play one that has all the content available.
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Idaho11 wrote:
Squaty wrote:
I think some people take the completionist philosophy to a pathological level. They would rather have no game at all than purchase a very good game, knowing that there was a Promo Card out there in the world with alternative art on it.


Well that's a rather insulting view. Maybe some people don't want to support companies that engage in predatory marketing practices ("Buy it now or we'll never sell it to you!"), and also have such a variety of games available to them that they can decide to pass on one that, in almost all likelihood, isn't the greatest game of all time because they'd rather play one that has all the content available.
What do you mean "all the content?" Should early gamers interested in games like Arkham Horror or Small World refuse to buy the game until all expansions that will ever be created are available at once! Is a game only viable if you have ready access to every component that is, was, or ever will be available for it?

All games and components are by their very nature limited in availability, whether by print run (Dice Masters), cost (War of the Ring Collector's Edition), eventual decline of broad interest (out-of-print games), or by design (Kickstarter/Convention exclusives). If a company were to make an amazing game, and then moved by a grassroots show of support decided to demonstrate appreciation by upgrading only those components included in the Kickstarter (i.e. Euphoria) does that make the publishers guilty preying on an unwilling public? I feel like it is a genuine demonstration of gratitude to current supporters, as well as a means of drawing in new interest to our hobby.

I'm interested in what other marketing practices you might consider "predatory". If you were to include every company that offers incentives to buy their product, that would be a long list indeed. I suggest that those who are interested in a a game will buy it eventually, and if they are given incentives to invest in the product early, providing valuable capital to facilitate production costs, then I say more power to them.

If you absolutely "gotta catch 'em all" with respect to a game's components, then perhaps you should stick to Chess and face cards, and rest assured that you have every expansion, component, and exclusive that will ever be produced for those games. On the other hand, if you can appreciate the difference between "The Game" and "The Non-Essential Bits of Plastic and Cardboard" which make "The Game" no better or worse than the retail version, just unique.

Therein lies the resentment, I think. My game is unique, and I'm resented because your game can't be exactly like mine. I don't believe the existence of extra components in any way affects the value of the base game itself.
 
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It exclusives are not gameplay-related (Playing mats, t-shirts, etc) or gameplay-changing (alternate art cards, minis instead of cardboard cutouts, etc) - make them. If their effect is minor (like yet another race and power in Small World) - make them too. If exclusives are game-changing - make them free/cheaper for backers, but make it available to retail buyers too.
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Squaty wrote:
What do you mean "all the content?" Should early gamers interested in games like Arkham Horror or Small World refuse to buy the game until all expansions that will ever be created are available at once! Is a game only viable if you have ready access to every component that is, was, or ever will be available for it?

All games and components are by their very nature limited in availability, whether by print run (Dice Masters), cost (War of the Ring Collector's Edition), eventual decline of broad interest (out-of-print games), or by design (Kickstarter/Convention exclusives).
...
Therein lies the resentment, I think. My game is unique, and I'm resented because your game can't be exactly like mine. I don't believe the existence of extra components in any way affects the value of the base game itself.


Arkham horror, Smallworld: You can buy everything currently available. (There might be some convention specials I don't know about though.)

1) Print run, eventual decline of broad interest (out-of-print games)
= Natural product life cycle

2) Cost
= Everything available equally for everyone. Your example LotR:CE is upgraded but same game play, thus irrelevant.

3) By design
= Artificial scarcity.


" My game is unique, and I'm resented because your game can't be exactly like mine". Yes. Your toys are special, and other kids can't have the same toys. That makes YOU special.

I really can't understand why so many adult men that so readily would defend their maturity and morals cling to sandbox-level childishness. Board games are to be shared and enjoyed, and there is no reason what so ever to deny others equal enjoyment and experience without defending early childhood motives.
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Mikademus wrote:
Arkham horror, Smallworld: You can buy everything currently available. (There might be some convention specials I don't know about though.)


You're mostly right, but this is only recently true. Necromancer's Island (admittedly not a great addition to the game) was long out of print, and possessed by only a few. Currently, the Royal Bonus expansion (one of the dreaded Kickstarter exclusives, which they eventually did make available on the DoW website)is out of print and only available on the secondary market (Amazon, eBay).

Mikademus wrote:
1) Print run, eventual decline of broad interest (out-of-print games)
= Natural product life cycle
Agreed, but how does this square with your "all games should be available to everyone" philosophy? If the companies truly cared, wouldn't they continue to cater to those few late-comers who want to find a copy of a long-gone game? Perhaps in some cases, the costs involved in always making all things available to all people are prohibitive--or perhaps there is a vast conspiracy to make sure gamers are frustrated. That seems more likely.

Mikademus wrote:
2) Cost
= Everything available equally for everyone. Your example LotR:CE is upgraded but same game play, thus irrelevant.
I think you mean WotR:CE. You don't think cost limits availability? Then allow me to introduce you to eBay, I'd be amazed if you couldn't eventually find your missing game components there. Problem solved, as long as money is no object!

Mikademus wrote:
3) By design
= Artificial scarcity.
Yes, but my point is, so what? The exclusives aren't crucial to gameplay. In games with variable player powers, additional components and expansions will naturally include additional rules and powers. Additional rules and powers, i.e., not part of the game, but something extra. If you never knew it existed, you could go on your merry way, playing your favorite game in blissful ignorance.

Mikademus wrote:
" My game is unique, and I'm resented because your game can't be exactly like mine". Yes. Your toys are special, and other kids can't have the same toys. That makes YOU special.

I really can't understand why so many adult men that so readily would defend their maturity and morals cling to sandbox-level childishness.
...makes me special? Explain to me how the "if I can't have everything, then I don't want it at ALL!" attitude makes one the paragon of maturity?

Mikademus wrote:
Board games are to be shared and enjoyed, and there is no reason what so ever to deny others equal enjoyment and experience without defending early childhood motives.
Thanks doc. I see now that my failure to get agitated by the fact that companies offer additional product to people who make additional and early investment in their product. It probably all stems from an early childhood memory of when I was the last to leave the sandbox when we were called in for treats, we all got something slightly different, and I was...OK. Somehow I managed to be content with what I had.

If want extra, you have to do extra. NOT having the extra stuff doesn't make a game any less complete, that's what extra means. Perhaps that's a lesson you missed during childhood.
 
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cinos wrote:

Stretch goals should unlock stuff that every game released will then have. It's just off putting to find a game that looks relatively interesting, to then do some research and find that if I'd known about it a year ago I could have gotten all of these, gameplay-enhancing, extras.



There's the reason for Exclusives. If you wait post-KS, you GET to do research, read reviews, etc. Usually pledging on KS means you are taking a risk, the game could pan out.

JJoruune
 
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