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Subject: Respecting women rss

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I've been having one of my occasional self-educational lurks through a number of the W&G threads and found this in MollySticks' thread about sexism in an FLGS (I didn't want to comment in the original thread because it had been derailed enough already, and this isn't strictly W&G either):

Fribian wrote:
I was at a restaurant eating breakfast yesterday. I generally take bar seats because it's easier to get into a busy place. A very nice looking woman sat beside me and struck up a conversation. I noticed her husband sat on the other side of her. It's natural for me to respect the man's wife by respecting him. I made certain I pulled them both into the conversation so that I could respect her and her husband together. It's natural for me to give precedence to the man - and it has nothing to do with sexism or disrespect to the woman's presence. I also don't want to get my ace kicked for looking like I'm attempting to pick up on the guy's wife or girlfriend, so I do owe the man respect. To me that's the best way to respect a woman is by respecting her man - if it's truly her man.

If I were in a store situation, I'd probably try to do the same without blocking out the woman, but I would give the man precedence simply because I don't know the relationship, and it seems by nature - the thing to do. Doesn't mean I'm sexist at all.

Now on the other hand if it were a woman clerk and a woman came up and did the same thing (blocking out the man), I'm not sure how I'd feel if I were the guy being blocked out of the conversation (I just initiated with the woman clerk). I'd probably feel like the woman clerk was a jerk. After all - it was me asking her the question, not my girlfriend or wife.


Is it just me or is this sinister at best: do many people (i.e. men, I guess) really think that the best way to respect a woman is to respect "her man"? Do I completely misunderstand "respect" here? It seems to me to be saying that if "her man" is OK with the situation it is perfectly acceptable to, say, start groping the woman (whatever she thinks) as long as you have respected the man and found out that he has no objections -- she appears to belong (in the property sense) to him.

"It's natural for me to give precedence to the man" and "it has nothing to do with sexism" in the same sentence: marvellous.
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I don't know, the OP seems to make a point of being inclusive of both people, just making sure the male is included so that there are no misconceptions. If he had just turned to the male and ignored the woman, then I could see some charge of sexism. It some ways it's not even respect, it's CYA. It's impossible to know how many bar fights start because of not acknowledging the guy a girl came with, but I would bet it's not small. That is just dealing with the human trait of jealousy and defusing a situation before it occurs.
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I saw that post and was really bothered by it, but really didn't even know what to say in response, it's so far out of the realm of an idea I can even understand...
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Yes, fair enough, I can see that (and the OP said as much; also it was the woman who started the conversation): it's what seemed to be the background mindset that concerned me.

I'm a great believer in the principle that if one wants to show interest in a woman (or a man, as the case may be) who is otherwise attached and who has shown reciprocal interest one does it while the partner is not around devil
 
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If I'm talking to a couple of strangers, I will attempt to include them both in the conversation regardless of their respective sexes.
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David N wrote:
It seems to me to be saying that if "her man" is OK with the situation it is perfectly acceptable to, say, start groping the woman (whatever she thinks) as long as you have respected the man and found out that he has no objections -- she appears to belong (in the property sense) to him.

"It's natural for me to give precedence to the man" and "it has nothing to do with sexism" in the same sentence: marvellous.


I didn't read the first part in at all. To me, it seemed more like saying, "By acknowledging and including her romantic partner I show that my intent isn't romantic or someone counter to that prior relationship." At the same time, I think you're right that this sounds highly sexist. It's one thing if someone says that they always make some to include the partner so no one feels left out and there's no confusion over intent, but when one person strikes up a conversation with you and you give precedence to the partner who didn't initiate the conversation because of their sexes...well, it sure sounds like sexism. Especially since the last part of his comment suggests that he gives precedence to the extent that the woman could even feel blocked out of the conversation.
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The precedence bit is what seems off. I can understand making sure to involve a woman's male companion in a conversation so you don't appear to be hitting on her, but that's an odd choice of words. Showing respect is one thing - appear to prefer one person over another (which the word implies) is quite another.

A lot of the rest is just common courtesy or respect to begin with, so that's the only thing that stands out to me. It strikes me that it may just be poor word choice rather than sexism, though.
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David N wrote:
I've been having one of my occasional self-educational lurks through a number of the W&G threads and found this in MollySticks' thread about sexism in an FLGS (I didn't want to comment in the original thread because it had been derailed enough already, and this isn't strictly W&G either):

Fribian wrote:
I was at a restaurant eating breakfast yesterday. I generally take bar seats because it's easier to get into a busy place. A very nice looking woman sat beside me and struck up a conversation. I noticed her husband sat on the other side of her. It's natural for me to respect the man's wife by respecting him. I made certain I pulled them both into the conversation so that I could respect her and her husband together. It's natural for me to give precedence to the man - and it has nothing to do with sexism or disrespect to the woman's presence. I also don't want to get my ace kicked for looking like I'm attempting to pick up on the guy's wife or girlfriend, so I do owe the man respect. To me that's the best way to respect a woman is by respecting her man - if it's truly her man.

If I were in a store situation, I'd probably try to do the same without blocking out the woman, but I would give the man precedence simply because I don't know the relationship, and it seems by nature - the thing to do. Doesn't mean I'm sexist at all.

Now on the other hand if it were a woman clerk and a woman came up and did the same thing (blocking out the man), I'm not sure how I'd feel if I were the guy being blocked out of the conversation (I just initiated with the woman clerk). I'd probably feel like the woman clerk was a jerk. After all - it was me asking her the question, not my girlfriend or wife.


Is it just me or is this sinister at best: do many people (i.e. men, I guess) really think that the best way to respect a woman is to respect "her man"? Do I completely misunderstand "respect" here? It seems to me to be saying that if "her man" is OK with the situation it is perfectly acceptable to, say, start groping the woman (whatever she thinks) as long as you have respected the man and found out that he has no objections -- she appears to belong (in the property sense) to him.

"It's natural for me to give precedence to the man" and "it has nothing to do with sexism" in the same sentence: marvellous.


This is really a thought processes that happens when a female talks to someone? A whole decision tree pops up based on perceived respect, sexism, precedence, and who knows what else? If a woman talks to you, talk to her. If you want to talk to her husband, talk to him too. That's it. I know there are cultures and manners to think about, but seriously, how do some people even function in society anymore?
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perfalbion wrote:
The precedence bit is what seems off. I can understand making sure to involve a woman's male companion in a conversation so you don't appear to be hitting on her, but that's an odd choice of words. Showing respect is one thing - appear to prefer one person over another (which the word implies) is quite another.

A lot of the rest is just common courtesy or respect to begin with, so that's the only thing that stands out to me. It strikes me that it may just be poor word choice rather than sexism, though.


Yeah, I was thinking almost the same thing. It's an odd way to explain what is going on, but I understand what he was talking about.

Is it sexist, well yes, a little. Is it "wrong"? I don't think so, but then again I have a more classical view on gender roles that doesn't lock step with the "New Contemporary" view gender roles.

But there is an ebb and flow to those views, today it might come off as disrespectful tomorrow, who knows. I mean look at women in the workplace. 20 years ago it was looked down upon for a women not to have a career and be a stay at home mother, today there is a counter revolution and more women are staying home raising kids.

Neither way is right, neither way is wrong. Just different ways to approach a subject that is subjective at best.
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I would only talk to the woman, because I'm not interested in the man - men are jerks. So I would talk to the woman and make it clear I'm totally hitting on her.
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Sky Knight X wrote:

This is really a thought processes that happens when a female talks to someone? A whole decision tree pops up based on perceived respect, sexism, precedence, and who knows what else? If a woman talks to you, talk to her. If you want to talk to her husband, talk to him too. That's it. I know there are cultures and manners to think about, but seriously, how do some people even function in society anymore?


Spot on.

The answer to how some people function is that looking for sexism, racism, or any other -ism is the function that many in our current society enjoy doing. I will guarantee you that there is no way to relate a tale of a man meeting a couple he doesn't know and engaging them in conversation that is above someone, somehow throwing themselves, screaming and hollering, under the bus and shouting that this is sexism or misogynist.

Having owned a game store for a couple of decades and also having read at least a score of "sexism in game stores" threads on BGG over the last decade or so, I have this to say - you people are fucking idiots. Just buy your fucking games or not. Don't like the smell/aura/clerks? Then buy online or go down the street to another store.

What is the point or purpose of trying to shame, embarrass or make a fuss over your personal opinion? I think the point is that people need attention in our culture of attention seekers - some angry woman sees Kim Kardashian's ass and thinks "I'll never have a sweet booty like that... but I can be a total fucking bitch and get attention for something other than my own ugly-ass flat booty."

Or some hand-wringing perpetual "girl's best friend she'll never fuck" decides that he needs to get noticed, by women... maybe espcially black women, so he becomes a screeching, finger-pointing, outraged semi-coherent man who pretends he respects women. Charging around in an outraged huff spewing accusations of racism sexism and racial-sexism anyplace he suspects there may be a woman nearby to see him championing what he assumes all women are concerned about. So he morphs from "girl's best friend she'll never fuck" into "girl's annoying stalker that nobody will fuck".

Perhaps, with a little work, we can turn this into another rape thread?
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I do not know about teh case in the OP, but yes if I am engaging with a woman who has a partner I also make sure (in order to avoid such things as a punch in the face from the kind of people who equate respect with fear) to engage them as well.

I have been in (and seen) too many situations where you end up "disrespecting" the man by being polite and friendly towards "their woman".
 
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Hot shit, I've arrived -- I have a Tripp comment (even if he thinks I'm a limey cunt, or was that BJL?)
 
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David N wrote:
Hot shit, I've arrived -- I have a Tripp comment (even if he thinks I'm a limey cunt, or was that BJL?)


No, you haven't risen to "Limey cunt" status yet. That was what I called StirlingMooMoo the other day -- accurately called him, I might add. I don't think Bj's religion allows him to use the word cunt. But he is okay with Moosecock.
 
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Jythier wrote:
I would only talk to the woman, because I'm not interested in the man - men are jerks. So I would talk to the woman and make it clear I'm totally hitting on her.


To produce more children of course?
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DWTripp wrote:
David N wrote:
Hot shit, I've arrived -- I have a Tripp comment (even if he thinks I'm a limey cunt, or was that BJL?)


No, you haven't risen to "Limey cunt" status yet. That was what I called StirlingMooMoo the other day -- accurately called him, I might add. I don't think Bj's religion allows him to use the word cunt. But he is okay with Moosecock.


Apologies for my presumption cry
 
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David N wrote:
do many people (i.e. men, I guess) really think that the best way to respect a woman is to respect "her man"?


Yes, we all go MadMen style when talking to women. Its best for them to just sit their and look pretty.

I have a feeling the guy in question is M'lady type of douche bag.
 
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perfalbion wrote:
The precedence bit is what seems off. I can understand making sure to involve a woman's male companion in a conversation so you don't appear to be hitting on her, but that's an odd choice of words. Showing respect is one thing - appear to prefer one person over another (which the word implies) is quite another.

A lot of the rest is just common courtesy or respect to begin with, so that's the only thing that stands out to me. It strikes me that it may just be poor word choice rather than sexism, though.


Yeah, I just took it as he wouldn't want to be seen to be hitting on her. The whole "respecting her man" language just seems like some old school personality. So he's maybe a bit odd rather than sexist?
 
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I guess he just didn't know how to put it in today's PC flowery language that doesn't offend anyone.
 
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I can see it now: "I'm not a sexist, I'm just a bit odd."
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I can't believe you guys are replying to she2's post, I am still waiting on a reply to the email I sent her husband, so as not to disrespect him.
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Jythier wrote:
I guess he just didn't know how to put it in today's PC flowery language that doesn't offend anyone.


Has someone taken offense?
 
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perfalbion wrote:
Jythier wrote:
I guess he just didn't know how to put it in today's PC flowery language that doesn't offend anyone.


Has someone taken offense?


If someone hasn't, I volunteer
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Shit, I thought she was on her own.
 
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Jythier wrote:
I guess he just didn't know how to put it in today's PC flowery language that doesn't offend anyone.


This falls under the heading of People Skills. It really is an area where most RSP'ers have little or no understanding. And some that do tend to warp "social interaction" into some sort of a New Age PC Rules Survival Course.

In the context of a game store clerk, or really, any person engaged in selling or serving the public - you will always offend someone. Always. That is so totally true that you have two choices: a) become a scientist or b) carry on.

Okay, a) above could also mean become an actuary, accountant, WoW gold miner, or any of the hundreds of occupations that don't require you to have a clue about other human beings. Having spent my entire life selling stuff, teaching people to sell stuff, owning businesses that sell stuff and just in general - interacting with people as part of my source of income I understand this completely. There isn't any right way to not offend someone. If a person is inclined to be sensitive about their own personal selection of "isms" then they will find offense, whether it exists or not. It exists for them and that's what is important to them - themselves, they are focused inwardly.

Here's what I mean: I spent a few years selling luxury automobiles. Many of the buyers were male-aggressive personality types. Easy to understand when you think about who was buying $100,000 cars in 1989 - typically men who were alpha dominant. But they also wanted (in many cases) to have their SO involved. Or maybe they were buying for their lady. Doesn't matter, what mattered was understanding that only an iceberg tip of the relationship dynamics of the couple is ever going to be visible to a guy dangling the keys of a Mercedes Saloon car in his hand. But the guy (me, in this case) still had to interact with both of the people and somehow not dent or scratch any egos, self-perceptions, underlying currents or whatever the fuck else people who waste money on cars worry or think about.

So the solution was to treat every couple the same - ask a few qualifying questions to set a course and then stay on course. Attempting to understand and adjust to subconscious levels of resentment or tension between two people, their motives, history and even today's clothing choices, is an impossible task. Deft qualifying, innocuous friendliness and the willingness to produce what they want -- or in a social setting, not produce unwanted feelings -- is the key to interacting with people you truly don't give two shits about in the first place.
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