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A Song of Ice and Fief (fan expansion for Fief 1429)» Forums » General

Subject: A Song of Ice and Fief (a Fief 1429 re-theme) rss

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Ivan Alaiz
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Updated with the latest changes!

Last set of rules in pretty format: http://www.mediafire.com/download/whav330t53pdnda/A_song_of_...
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Latest print files (formatted for professional print with bleeds and so on)

English: http://www.mediafire.com/download/qtl7eddl4q2aej7/A_song_of_...

Spanish:

http://www.mediafire.com/download/19s62798ssa22ez/A_song_of_...

I have decided to update the original post with the main consensus I am reading on the thread:

I have been thinking of doing a re-theme (not a variant or rules modification) of the game to the "Game of Thrones" universe, the main reason: I think that this game and its intrigue mechanics are really a good fit for that thematic and I love that setting. Its going to be a long read, be prepared.

My idea is not to change the rules and leverage some of the expansions to fit some features but I have also hit some major roadblocks that will take time to solve, as the project is still on "blueprint phase" I thought about sharing a bit of what I have thought so far and open the thread for discussion (and collaboration if there are takers!).

Warning: There may be implicit spoilers for these that are not up to date with their book reading so please consider yourselves warned


I will separate the discussion on three separate topics:
- The theme (and scope)
- The Mechanics (fitting fief stuff into Agot stuff)
- The board (how to convert the board into a piece of westeros without changing its structure).

The Theme:

It perfectly fits!... sort of.

The first difference between both worlds (asides from the fantasy theme) is the church. And that is a big blockler and I decided basically to "secularize" the game, bear with me.

The Pope --> Hand of the King,
The Bishops --> "Warden titles"
Cardinal Cards --> Council seats: Master of whispers, Master of laws... The purchaseable council seat (no longer a direct purchase but a bid with a minumun 5 denier, there will be an optional "Theme" variant included in the re-theme that gives more character to the council seats, each one will grant a noble attribute to the holder.


Fief titles will be aligned with the "ruling titles" such as "Lord Paramount of the vale, riverlands, westerlands, dorne etc... looking for an equivalent of the "Duchy" title

Timeline: Probably during the first book to have all characters "available", except for house targaryen, as the Essos timeline is mostly disconnected with the events in westeros, Targaryen will be accelerated to right after Astapor and assume that Danny comes back at that point to westeros.

9 houses present (see Mechanics for more detail: Lannister, Tyrell, Arryn, Martell, Baratheon, Tully, Greyjoy, Stark and Targaryen(basically allowing Daenerys or her bannermen to return to westeros sooner than expected if someone badly wants to play her.

Mechanics:

Voting: The voting mechanic is maintained but it does not represent a "democratic" vote but the maneuvering of influencers in the grand council and the small council, favour trading etc that occur in nominative election processes.

Houses in order to provide flavour to the houses I will use the politics expansion, and also alter a bit the game mechanics (without altering the odds):
1- Houses: the advisors from the politics expansion are used, instead of drawing/choosing an advisor, the players draw a house (which will limit the area of the map for their first placement which is a slight change of the usual placement rules to compensate more than 6 houses have been created to allow for more different starting positions), as there are just 6 advisors 2 of the relics have been repurposed for that, limiting their usage to an specific location/area:

Stark: Bohemian + Special ability: Any stark may take the black for free (become a templar)
Lannister: Spy
Tyrell: Minstrel, tyrell ladies are cunning!
Baratheon: Executioner (as per playtest rules, the executioner may execute a prisoner at will per turn)
Martell: Strategist.
Arryn: Saint grial relic power in the Eryie
Tully: Toll Bridge (the twins!) counting riverland villages controlled instead of bridges.
Greyjoy: Thief + special hindrance: Only one mill per village.
Targaryen: Not bound to placement restrictions, start with daenerys in hand, she has the d'arc power and can marry even if d'arc. Also targaryen has no more females than Danny.

Lords and Characters: The characters deck instead of having named lords will have some cards reading " New Lord Joins the court (or new Lady joins the court. Then each house will have two decks of characters (male and female) and players will take a random character from either deck depending on the "noble" card drawn. Each house will have an initial character that is thematically relevant. Each Character will have a noble attribute, for example Lannister places an "new lord joins the court" card, draws the card on top of his male characters deck and its Joffrey! (tyrant).

This way we get the flavour without changing the mechanics of the standard game using the politics expansion (the attributes deck becomes the house characters decks), the only difference is that the odds of drawing specific noble attributes varies from house to house and the same attribute may be repeated but this is mitigated by creating a suitable pool of characters for each house 5 males and 3 females, this also gives us the possibility of creating balanced houses and reducing the luck factor (plenty of it witht he rolls already).

Optional: We will use part of the crusades expansion to create the mechanics of repelling wilding attacks on the wall. We reshaped the objectives to small format cards (like Catan cards) so they are easier to print at a printing service (the same for the lords btw), the objectives have been entirely re designed using the crusades balance as a framework, the attaks on the wall are no longer decided but rolled randomly and not defending the wall has consequences, all players may lose if enough battles on the wall are lost.

Another optional thematic Variant: Season tracker, making the disasters worse as the game advances and the attaks on the wall more often.

Saladin and his colleagues are Mance raider or the big bad ass white walker the rest of the times, same mechanics with the exception that white walkers take no prisoners but two different characters. If you look at the crusades board with he arrow in the middle its easy to picture the wall :-) The rest of the wall mechanics are just a port of the crusades, the reason for the wildings to have defensive bonus is that when the westerosi forces arrive thay already took the fortification next to the wall and the fight is to expell them from there.

On the wall phase it will be randomly decided where the wildings attack they attack a number of objectives equal to the number of lords. As each attack is made on sequence instead of the wilding tokens I will create a tracker on the board itself that counts the number of wilding troops in each attack.


I did not find any mechanic for the holy orders yet, (proposals welcome)
Holy Orders: Teutonic Knights will not be used, Templars --> Nightwatch order
- Nightwatch brother cannot attack other players (like templars)
- Always defend the wall even if no lord commander of the nightwatch is chosen
- A Nightwatch brother obtain a free knight like the templar (a ranger).
- Nigthwatch vow : No wedding and no fief title
- Lord commander = Templar Grand master
- No titles gained for themselves (title goes to another family member)

D'arc --> Mother of Dragons


The tactic expansion can be used without any change but in names (royal guard renamed to white cloaks, etc)

The Board

Well This is the single biggest difficulty I have found due to the roads that connect the different villages.

After an initial playtest we decided to keep 90% of the original structure and change connections in 4 villages, keeping the overall connectivity, just moving them around to have a cleaner map.

As an image is worth a thousand words:
This is the original board:


The current version of the board (v14)


And some house boards...




There is a playtest going on in the Play by Forum, to test the house abilities and the character abilities balance.

First tabletop playtest... visually it is already coming together...

Well that is my progress so far, I would welcome any criticism and Ideas you might have!.

Summary of Main changes versus Vanilla
This summary is meant for quick access to the main rule changes for players that are experience in Fief 1429:

Setup and General Mechanics:
French rules are used as a foundation (french diplomacy and assassination rules)
The court event deck no longer contains nobles but “play a male” or “play a female” cards, nobles are part of each house character deck (3 females and 5 males per deck) and players will draw a male or a female as needed, if a house runs out of females, males are played instead, if a house runs out of males “hedge knights” are played instead.
Each house has a defined starting noble, (on setup the player takes the corresponding cards from the court event deck)
Each noble has an assigned “attribute” and each house has an assigned “advisor” (now house power) as per the Political Expansion
Church titles (Wardens, hand and council) no longer have marriage restrictions
Heir to the throne is no longer a title but an special character not on the house character deck, as the hedge knights

Hear Ye:
(NWE) Instead of call to crusade, a roll is made to declare battle at the wall, double chance in autumn and triple in winter
(NWE) King can declare for R'hllor and burn all septs and get cursed, hand may join in to share benefit and burn any untitled noble
King has extra powers
Breaks any tie other than ties in battle and decides the winner
May move warden titles (and associated small council titles) upon request of the holder
Lifting Renegade status is no longer a Hand power but a King power
Wardens can marry and be King Candidates (although royalty cannot become Hand or Small Council member)
The Hand cannot banish a noble on the same turn the hand was elected.
(NWE) When banished, an unmarried Lord can take the black for free.

Discard, Draw and Play cards
Justice can target Renegades
(WiC) in Autumn and Winter, disasters will strike extra regions
Unlucky attribute: Impedes mill boosts to be played but allows to cancel disasters in the region (so late seasons dont hit as hard)

Purchase Phase
(NWE) Septs: 5 GD same rules as templar commanderies (NW gets 2 GD discount on purchase)
(NWE) Maesters: 5GD, similar to TK fortification upgrade (no secret passage, no assassinations, send cards to other player without spending diplomacy)
Bannermen Captains: Exactly the same as bombardiers (no gunpowder in asoiaf)
(NWE):1 NW ranger (knight templar in vanilla) may be purchased for 0GD if the NW Brother has none.

Variants and Expansions:
Winter is Coming Variant: A tracker on the side ot the board indicates the game season: Summer, Autumn, Winter. Place the season marker on Summer, (after the first time the fortune deck is replenished, the marker will be moved from Summer to Autumn, and to Winter the second time). If playing with this variant remove 1 plague card from the game, in Autumn and winter 1 and 2 extra dice are rolled for wall attack and disaster locations
Thematic Council Variant: Council titles (cardinals in vanilla) now have a power attached to each of them, also purchasable title is now a bid
Night Watch Expansion (NWE): Much like the templars + crusades but with some special rules:
no treasure mechanics
no reserved buildings for them (although they get a discount on septs)
immune to justice
always forced to go to the wall if attacked
when a noble is banished the noble can choose to take the black instead
All the wall (crusade) mechanics has been altered, no longer voluntary but random attack. If wall is not defended ALL PLAYERS MAY LOSE THE GAME.
No hierarchy in the objectives, first to arrive is the Leader.
Losing Wall battles has consequences, specially for the players that sent least amount of troops to the wall (troops are tallied at the end of movement phase)
If 4 Wall battles are lost the game ends and everybody loses
Always 3 wall objectives drawn, 50% of them false alarms
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Emil Juul Jacobsen
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This sounds like a wonderful combination. One thing that peaked my interest for Fief in the first place, was its similarity to the strategy (computer) game Crusader Kings 2. Fans of that game were not slow to make a modification of that in the land of Westeros. That mod has been pretty popular, so I think your idea also has a good chance of becoming very successful.
I am looking forward to see your progress.
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Ivan Alaiz
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Indeed! In fact I have written this morning to the mod dev team to try to use their art for the board map... I hope they agree :-)
 
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Martin Swift
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Could be a great and popular mod....
 
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Sebastian Samberg
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YES! This is a very good idea! Actually, part of the reason why I backed Fief was its thematic proximity to Game of Thrones, and also because the AGoT board game rarely hits the table because it's best with six players but also takes very long with that many people, who are actually pretty hard to round up in the first place

I am afraid though that porting GoT onto Fief in a straight forward manner will not work, at least not without some breaks and rifts in the GoT theme. So here is my feedback:

The Theme

Now, getting a good explanation for Fief's church in GoT might in fact be the most tricky bit.
As you pointed out, the church does not have an exact counterpart in GoT, but making the Pope effectively the Hand and the bishops wardens leads to some rather strange thematic consequences.
- Why would the wardens (or small council members) be excluded from becoming king when they are acutally among the most likely candidates for that office.
- Also, I'd say that the areas that have wardens in Westeros more or less coincide with the political borders between the different regions. Thus, the Lord Paramount of X would usually also be the Warden of X.
- Why should the Hand of the King get the tithes of the Faith and not the King, if indeed anyone from the political establishment.
- Why would the small council, and not the king, determine the Hand?

Even though it's surely not a perfect fit, why not just let the Faith of the Seven be the church? For the above reasons, I think it fits better than making bishops wardens and cardinals council members.
Instead, bishops could be important regional septons/functionaries, and cardinals could be the Most Devout instead. After all, and aside from political meddling, the Most Devout do choose the High Septon in Westeros. Then bishoprics would simply be the Faith's arbitrary organizational divisions. Excommunication could be either just that or maybe called "damnation" or something. If it were "sent to the Wall", it would be somewhat strange for the affected noble to still roam the lands as he pleased.
Of course, there are some oddities with this interpretation, too.
For instance, what about the Iron Islands and the North, where the Faith has only little influence. I admit this is not the most satisfying solution, but I can't think of a better one right now.

I do like calling the Fief titles "Lord/Lady Paramount of X". That has way more flavour than what I imagine will be the common denomination in standard Fief "Lord of the Dark Green Barony". To me Westeros is jucier than standard Fief's "Wherever in France in 1429"


The Mechanics

Giving each house a special ability is a good idea. Fixing the different advisors to certain houses however takes away from replayability imho. So how about this idea: The advisors are the small council members and which member is most influenced by which house is determined (as per standard Fief, if I'm not mistaken) by randomly dealing them at the beginning of the game. Maybe the correlations could be thus:

Hand of the King OR Lord Commander of the Kingsguard = The Strategist
Master of coin = The Thief
Master of laws = The Minstrel (not the best fit to be honest, maybe drop the "at least one female lord" condition? Frankly, I don't really get that idea anyway)
Master of whisperers = The Spy (duh)
Master of ships = Toll Collector (maybe change the bridge condition to ports and define some coastal towns as ports)
Grand Maester = The Bohemian (he is very knowledgeable after all)

Having house-specific character decks sound like a good thematic boost that makes you care about them more than in Fief (I imagine). A problem may be that all of these characters must be thematically able to marry (or become a septon if my above suggestion were in place). Marrying Mace Tyrell to Catelyn Stark for example would be somewhat strange.
Tying certain noble attributes to certain characters is also very thematic, but might also go against replayability. It's a tough decision whether to go for theme or variability here.

D'Arc: Maybe Maester Aemon was right and there is/will be a "PrinCESS That Was Promised". Or maybe D'Arc is the 'Chosen of R'hllor' (think like Melisandre).

One holy order might be the Faith Militant (at least the Warrior's Sons), another might be the Night's Watch actually. Why the Night's Watch would build castles anywhere but on the wall might be a stretch though. Maybe some modifications of the mechanics would be necessary here.


The Board

Keeping the exact same structure is very difficult indeed, maybe even impossible. Apart from matching the fiefs and bishoprics to specific regions of Westeros, one issue is also that in Fief you do not have any kind of ocean. Westeros on the other hand is a continent and fleets do play a significant role in the geopolitical constellations of the setting.
Although I don't think it's necessary to include marine travel or anything of that kind, it could be an interesting twist, especially if you should decide that you have to change the structure after all. This might also work well with defining some towns as ports, as mentioned above. It would certainly be thematic, though I grant you that establishing such mechanics would be a major addition to standard Fief.


... ok, I think that's it for the moment I hope this is helpful. I will definitely keep an eye on this
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Ivan Alaiz
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MordredPendragon wrote:
YES! This is a very good idea! Actually, part of the reason why I backed Fief was its thematic proximity to Game of Thrones, and also because the AGoT board game rarely hits the table because it's best with six players but also takes very long with that many people, who are actually pretty hard to round up in the first place


...And just like that I found myself among kin!... I am exactly in the same spot, I love the setting, I tried (hard) to love the FFG boardgame, and when I saw Fief I thought: This is what AGoT boardgame should have been, it seems I am not the only one thinking like that.

Theme:

There is a pending decision I have to make, timeline:

Late Timeline:
- Pros: If I set the theme around the fourth and fifth books , the church of the seven becomes important enough, also there is a weaker king so the small council gains power which is good for the theme fit. Also There is no action in the north (excluding the wall) so I can make the map a bit more square. Also there is a house actually "crusading" on the wall... and there is actually a holy order stablished yet another good mechanic fit.
- Cons it also means players cannot play with their "pet house" (my wife always wants to play stark so you can imagine this is a factor!)and some of the "cool to play" characters are dead.(Which by the way helps to avoid weird marriages)

Early Timeline First Book:
- Pros: Starks and Tullys are there, more actual fighting taking place wich fits all the fighting mechanics
- Cons: Basically all the pros described above whistle

Even Earlier Timeline (Robs rebellion):
- Pros Targaryens! And healthy baratheons..., original setting not covered in any other boardgame that I know of, also the church was stronger then wastn't it?
- Cons Harder to relate to the characters

That said. The church of the seven was my first thought to match the medieval church, but it has some cons: It would force basically to play on the late timeline to match the theme also I struggle to see why the church of the seven would make that much money... Main problem: Other faiths, greyjoys are not in the scope (they never wanted to become king of westeros anyhow) Starks conveniently "removed from the scene", and Baratheon... I dont see a problem in using the hand of the king as pope (asides the fact that he does not marry wich would be strange) because there are actually pressures and debates on who is to be hand...

Also If I do that I need to re-think the cardinal cards (makes no sense council members voting for high septon)

-Pros: You hit the nail, the wardens not becoming king are strange (also not marrying) and its also hard to explain tax levy, so I am starting to think on going back to that road.

In a nutshell: The best theme fit prevents us from playing the coolest houses and limits the playability of the small coucing debates and politics (which I wanted to have in)

Mechanics:

Yet another decission to make, the closer to the theme the less this is a re-theme and becomes an "scenario" a setting where some variables within the mechanics are set. I want to have a good compromise here.

I would rather keep a balance between those, the farther from the "scenario" the better though for replayability. An idea (with more work) is to produce a "Robert's rebellion" scenario on top of the retheme that includes starks and targaryens... More work... but also more coolness for the same price XD!!

I would rather keep the advisor to house conversion, by randomly assigning houses at the start of the game you are basically keeping the random mechanic, the only limitation is that if you get a certain advisor you start on a designed fiefdom (which is an acceptable trade off IMHO), I own the FFG boardgame and this was never an issue, just something you take for granted.

I also think that the House character mechanic does not limit replayability, as long as I produce enough characters, there are 20 attributes, if I produce 10(ish) characters per house I could cover half of the attributes with each house and the possible combinations are still very high. Ifg I am willing to slightly change the mechanic (hard for me to do as I rather keep it "pure" to avoid playtesting needs) I would create 3 females and 7 males per house, that limits the max females a house can have wich is good to keep alliances possible (the ration is 1/3 on the original lords deck) and I would combine in some characters more than one attribute: for example Tyrion: Ugly and cunning, or Joffrey: Tyrant and Cruel

D'arc is set! Mother of Dragons (basically there ir Targaryen bood in each of the big houses, someone finds an egg...)

On the orders, I thought of the teutonic knights as night watch as well but as you say building castles and roaming westeros does not fit , (although always going to the wall on crusades do), another option is to make a character a "Follower of R'hllor" and use the teutonic knights for that... They will always go to the walll when needed anyhow, that fits. Templars and Faith militant have a clear parallelism and in the late game setting it is possible.

The board:

Some good news here, by de facto using some roads as boat routes I managed to fit the structure of the map to westeros, and it may offer some more good fit for the "secret pasage" cards as well.

Have a look:


If we go for the late setting it will change but I think it can be managed. (towers are cities and tents are villages).

Ideally I would like to substitute the ugly icons by the actual drawings by these!





Thx a lot for the feedback!
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Sdric
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Why do you not switch the twins and rivernun ?
That way no road will cross


For the templar, the nigthwatch is obvious
cannot attack other lord, cannot have a title
must fight wildings (sarrasins)
Lord Commander of the Night's Watch worth one victory point
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Sebastian Samberg
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Attention: Some things in this post may be considered spoilers! You have been warned.

On the timeline:

Considering that a game of Fief starts without a king maybe the best thematic fit would be just after Robert's unfortunate demise or just after the sack of King's Landing during Robert's Rebellion. In both cases the old King is dead and the heirs' claims (if any) are challenged. Thus, it's open season for all houses to try and make one of their own the new king.
A con of the first option might be that the FFG (base) game starts there, too. A con of the second one is that at that point most houses had already large armies in the field, so that Fief's standard starting positions would be not very representative of the actual state of affairs at that point. Also, the Targaryens would pretty much done for, and no Rhaegar
Personally, I would prefer the first of these two options even though it's also used by FFG. A power vacuum to be filled is always a great incentive for negotiations, backstabbing and war.

As you mentioned, the Faith seems to play a minor role in the stories of the books until the High Sparrow turns up and Cersei foolishly reinstates the Faith Militant. However, I think it would be a justifiable thematic stretch to have a powerful church even in the earlier timelines. As this variant is played, events will digress from what happened in the stories anyway so a more important role for the Faith would be ok imo. It's within the scope of what could have realistically happened.
After all, the Fief gown does not fit GoT perfectly. There are bound to be some stretches here and there. Best thing one can hope is that there are as little stretches as possible.

Mechanics

Yes, you are right about fixing the advisors to the houses, even though it would limit the playable houses to six and thus some parts of the board would be unavailable as starting positions. After all, in the FFG game the houses don't even have special abilites. There, it's only the characters on the house cards that are special. By matching the noble attributes to the characters, as you plan, you get a lot of flavour. After all, they are not just random faces, as in Fief, but characters we know from the stories. An ugly Sansa or Cersei would also be very unthematic.

One thing about the toll collector though: You have to be careful where to put the rivers and thus the bridges. I noticed that in Fief there are no bridges in the "western" side of the board. They are all in the middle or in the east. In fact, the yellow fief alone is connected to four out of five bridges, with the fith only one village away. What this means for this variant is that if the toll collector is fixed to a certain house (whose starting postion is somewhat fixed) it's important that the house can actually take advantage of this special ability. Maybe the toll collector has to be changed somehow so that the house to which his ability is attached is not at a disadvantage.

Mother of Dragons! Love it!

For the orders the Faith Militant (though it doesn't fit an earlier timeline too well), the Red Priests (makes you wonder though why there are no female ones with Melisandre being so prominent), and Night's Watch are all options. To have the NW would be really, really neat, but I believe that it doesn't fit either of the Knights Templar or the Teutonics without rending. With some changes it might be very interesting though.
But in general having the Crusades as the fight against wildlings fits very well.

Board

I'm a bit confused. The map certainly looks great already, but either I don't get which town from Fief is which on your map or you have changed some of the connections. For example, out of the five cities Sigy, Blaye, Tournus, Bourg, and St.Gérôme only the latter two have three connections (the former have two). But on your map not only do "Lannisport" and "High Garden" have three, but it seems also "King's Landing" and "Winterfell". Fief does not have crossroads like your map seems to have in Dorne, in the Stormlands and near King's Landing. Am I getting something wrong?

A minor thing (and likely to change anyway) is that the colour of Dorne and the Stormland look very similar in the current version of the board. Making Dorne a deeper orange might do the trick.

That said, making some roads into ship routes seems a good way to give credit to the fact that marine travel plays a role in Westeros. A minor issue might be that marine cavalcades are somewhat hard to imagine. But I think that is a stretch that's not too bad. Just don't overthink it

Final comment: Using the drawings instead of the tower and tent icons would be lovely! Hmmmm, just got an idea. Why not have a generic icon for the normal villages, some icon of a sept for the major towns ("Blaye" etc.) and the drawings for the fortress and city tiles. If you can find a drawing for all places on your board that might make it both nice to look at and easy to distinguish.

Whew, quite a lot of text again... But then again, I'd really like to see this happen
 
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Sebastian Samberg
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sdric wrote:
Why do you not switch the twins and rivernun ?
That way no road will cross


Well, then "the Twins" would not be directly connected to White Harbour anymore. Basically, it would change the original layout, connecting "the Crag" (if it is that) to Riverrun. That would be a bit more thematic though, because right now you have to go via the Twins or Lannisport AND Stoney Sept/Harrenhal/Crossroads Inn (whatever it is) to get from the Crag to Riverrun. If you want to keep the original layout though there is bound to be some geographical inconsistencies.

sdric wrote:
For the templar, the nigthwatch is obvious
cannot attack other lord, cannot have a title
must fight wildings (sarrasins)
Lord Commander of the Night's Watch worth one victory point


You are right. It would be strange though why Black Brothers roam the lands instead of staying at the wall. Also, the commanderies don't really fit too well and neither does the treasure. Why would the Night's Watch hide treasure far away from the Wall? They are also not particulary rich anyway. But if the inconsistent things were modified to fit, then matching the Templars with the NW could be great

 
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Sdric
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MordredPendragon wrote:
sdric wrote:
Why do you not switch the twins and rivernun ?
That way no road will cross


Well, then "the Twins" would not be directly connected to White Harbour anymore. Basically, it would change the original layout, connecting "the Crag" (if it is that) to Riverrun. That would be a bit more thematic though, because right now you have to go via the Twins or Lannisport AND Stoney Sept/Harrenhal/Crossroads Inn (whatever it is) to get from the Crag to Riverrun. If you want to keep the original layout though there is bound to be some geographical inconsistencies.

Why not also switch white harbor and the stony shore then all is fixed.

MordredPendragon wrote:

sdric wrote:
For the templar, the nigthwatch is obvious
cannot attack other lord, cannot have a title
must fight wildings (sarrasins)
Lord Commander of the Night's Watch worth one victory point


You are right. It would be strange though why Black Brothers roam the lands instead of staying at the wall. Also, the commanderies don't really fit too well and neither does the treasure. Why would the Night's Watch hide treasure far away from the Wall? They are also not particulary rich anyway. But if the inconsistent things were modified to fit, then matching the Templars with the NW could be great


Black brother are on recruitment mission.
Commanderies are nightwatch recruitment center.
Hide the treasure is a successful scout mission behind the wall to find the Horn of Winter

use the Teutonic knights for Follower of R'hllor" I like it

You can open the faith and Follower of R'hllor to female character and slightly increase the number of women
3 womens and 5 males per house seems OK.


Houses and the noble attribute
STARK
the bastard (Jon Snow)
the storm (Robb Stark)
the loyal (Eddard Stark)
the tyrant (Roose Bolton)
the ordinary (the Blackfish)

the cursed (Cathelyn Stark)
the beauty (Sansa Stark) -To marry her the other family must pay 2 deniers-
the young (Arrya Stark) -Cannot start an attack-

LANNISTER
the ugly (Tyrion Lannnister)
the cruel (Joffrey -Lannister-)
the cunning (Tywin Lannister)
the fearless (Jaime lannister)
the Mountain (Gregor Clegan) - get +1 f if cavalcade-

the persuasive (Cersei Lannister)
the mercifull (Gena Lannister) -cannot kill other lord during battle or assasinate-
the lady of the manor (Dorna Swyft) -+1 denier if in a castle or city -1 denier otherwise-

TYRELL
the blessed (Mace Tyrell)
the swift (Loras Tyrell)
the ordinary (Garlan Tyrell)
the commander (Randyll Tyrell) -+1 combat point for each knight-
the gallant (Garlan Tyrell) -???-

the shrewd (Maergery Tyrell) -add one vote when vote her husband to become King.-
the ???? (Queen of Thorn)
the ???? (Talla Tarly)

BARATHEON
the good (Stannis Baratheon)
the extravagant (Renly Baratheon)
the onion knight (Ser Davos) -+1 dice in a port-
the pirate (Salladhor Saan) -Any player can pay you 2 denier to cancel Sallador Saan action-
the strong (Edric Strom) -cannot be killed on a battle-

the shadow (Melisandre)
the loyal (Brienne of tharth)
the unlucky (Selyse Baratheon)



MARTELL
the extravagant (Oberyn Martell)
the old (Doran Martell) -can only move one step-
the ???? (Trystane Martell)
the ???? (Darkstar)
the ???? (Manfrey Martell)

the Ambitious (Arianne Martell)
the coward (Olenna Martell)
the bastard (Obara Sand)

ARRYN
the coward (Robbin Arryn)
the heart breaker (Lord Baylish)
the loyal (Marwyn Belmore)
the bodyguard (Vardis Eggen) -if in the same location when a lord kill, Vardis died instead.-
the fearless (Lyn Corbray)

the defensive (Lysa Arryn) -when defending a castle it count as a city.-
the perceptive (Anya Waynwood) -once per turn can see the card of another player-
the ???? (Ysilla Royce)

Note :
the saint is not choose as no relic in this re theme

TO BE CONTINUED
 
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Ivan Alaiz
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Well First of all, I love the feedback! Keep it coming.

Theme:

I was seriously considering the late timeline before reading your comments, I might go back to the book end of book 1 timeline though, nevertheless at the end of the fith book the king is in a very unstable position, enough to have the power game work... Everybody assumes Tommen will not last so lets play as if he is not there...

Also the late timeline allows for Targaryens to be back ;-)

Also, when thinking about the characters we need to think about not focusing on the novel "stars". The logic of Fief demands "Lords" that command troops and not all the characters do, lets put an example: Lannister

My first list of characters included Joffrey, tommen, mircella, Jaime, Tyrion etc... thats the first characters that always come to mind but then I realized that the list needs to look much more like Tywin bannermen in the field meetings, guys like Kevan Lannister, Addam Marbrand or Armory Lorch as these are actually "Lords" head of their own minor houses and command troops, hold fiefs etc. It also gives more freedom on the noble attributes as some of these are less well known.

Everybody seems to be OK to stretch the importance of the faith of the seven so I will go with that :-)



Mechanics:

First think, I am thinking on having more than 6 houses to give more freedom of placement and more replayability, the limit will be just on playing 6 houses at the same time, thats all. We would need to repeat the same advisor ability twice but I think that thats a minor evil.

On the toll collector, I was planning to make it a fixed amount, or change it to Ports (1 denier per "port city" and try to mimic the bridge mechanics)

I have been reviewing the crusaders rules (please remind that I have not played the game even once) and I think they fit well, I could extend the map or just put on the top a zoom of the wall. I would reshap the objectives to small format cards (like Catan cards) so they are easier to print at a printing service (the same for the lords btw).

The VP objectives would be the different castles on the wall, basically the castle has fallen and the objective is to retake it. Caravan objectives are rewards offered as compensation to the lords for defending the realm and the riches gained by plundering the wildings, Saladin and his colleagues are Mance raider (until he is defeated the first time) then the big bad ass white walker the rest of the times, same mechanics but two different characters. tIf you look at the crusades board witht he arrow in the middle its easy to picture the wall :-)

Holy Orders, Agreed one of them needs to be the Night watch, I am more inclined for the teutonic knights and leave the templars either out or as Faith militant (they were banned in the past after all). My main reason for this is that I dont like the night watch to be "baneable" by the fools in kings landing.

Map

I will try those ideas, I dont think that I got the connexions wrong as the cool thing about using gliffy is that I can move the boxes around on the map and the connexions are kept, and I did not change (on purpose) any connection from the first graph (the one on the top left).

Agreed on the colors, easy to change.

Agreed on the roads, not so easy to change, they are a pain in the ass to draw in photoshop (plot the road, select it, shrink selection, recolor... soblue Dont get me started on bishopric lines...

Thx for the praise on the map, that took a solid day of photoshop fumbling (I am not a pro)

On the citys art two notes: 1st those pics come from the official atlas (which I do not own) I reached out to the artist but he said that all the work is property of MR Martin as it was done on comission, I dont mind the IP as this is all fan work and not for profit but I just dont have the pics nor an easy way to scan these.

A plan B would be drawing the squares around the cities as in the original fief board and then placing inside a perspective drawing of the place, I am referring to images like these



I thought about a third option... a WAY COOLER OPTION... although expensive...




Plastic minis!!!!... I can picture myself already recreating the GoT opening in my living room with the music making the walls shake... But I dont have a clue about the real size of these asides from he pictures, and these together with the plastic buildings might make it difficult to play... but shit wouldn't it be cool?

I am also thinking about moving a village on Pyke, flints finger is the most obvious candidate... as pyke technically is controlled by the north... if I create more than 6 houses the next ones in line should be Greyjoy, Bolton and even Targaryen... hum... that would even give timeline flexibility! (limiting the noble cards depending on timeline although it would add complexity to the setup...)

Now I have some open questions for contribution:

Map: What if I break the road layout? instead of trying to traspose the graph I create a new map respecting the hierarchy (the amount of villages and cities in each fief and bishopric) and the potence of each node (the number of connections) but I re-connect the roads to whatever makes more sense... What do you think? (its gonna be a lot of work to figure out though, if someone is tempted to give it a try I can share the gliffy project send me a PM.

Character Art: I have been browsing around and even sent a couple of mails to deviantart fan artists, no answers so I will probably use FFG card game art, the easiest as it is a ton of pics to match whatever I need that keep a sohesive style... do you have other options to offer?

Character lists by house, I am not a Guru on westeros, I would like to put together between 8 and 10 characters per house 3 of them females, using banner house lords for at least half of them, please feel free to propose here or PM me the list with the proposed attribute.

Also if anyone wants to play with the map on photoshop I can also share the psd file again,PM me for that ;-)



 
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Ivan Alaiz
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sdric wrote:

Houses and the noble attribute
STARK
the bastard (Jon Snow)
the storm (Robb Stark)
the loyal (Eddard Stark)
the tyrant (Roose Bolton)
the ordinary (the Blackfish)
...

TO BE CONTINUED


Stark, Tyrell and Lannister: I really think we should de focus a bit less on the primary characters in the novels (keeping some) but also include bannermen as heads of the minos houses, it makes more sense to move the lord karstark or the lord Marbrand around with troops than Arya... It also gives us the chance to use all those banners created for these houses...

Arryn I like it!

Baratheon: I dont know as melisandre as a character, females must over anu other thing, be "marriable" and it does not fit.

Edric storm I would add Bastard as a second attribute...

Martell: The sand ladies are a must but being bastard they cannot be married and it may be a big limitation that unbalances the game...

I like the new attributes you are proposing but if we use those we are stepping away from the re-theme and entering into modding the game, I am unsure about doing this, firstly because I like the challenge of achieving the retheme without changing the rules and secondly because adding a comma to whats in there means playtesting and the pledge has not even arrived yet...

A comment on the art: I just came across the "A song of Ice and Fire" Portraits by Amok gallery in deviant art and I am liking what I see...

 
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Sdric
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Stark, Tyrell and Lannister: I really think we should de focus a bit less on the primary characters in the novels (keeping some) but also include bannermen as heads of the minor houses, it makes more sense to move the lord karstark or the lord Marbrand around with troops than Arya... It also gives us the chance to use all those banners created for these houses...

STARK
I agree but in the case of Stark you need to replace Arya by a female character : Amarylis Manderly ?

LANNISTER
Even if male character are primary character, all of them leads battle.
If we choose to have 6 male character then Kevin Lannister is a good choice

TYRELL
No so much primary character

ARRYN
I like it!

BARATHEON
I dont know as melisandre as a character, females must over another thing, be "marriable" and it does not fit.

why not if R hllor follower are Teutonic then she can choose this path.
As an example a player could choose that Stannis Baratheon becomes high Septon, so we will deviate from the fiction
I think the game should be able to reproduce some of the event but should not force player to follow them.

MARTELL:
The sand ladies are a must but being bastard they cannot be married and it may be a big limitation that unbalances the game...
OK

I like the new attributes you are proposing but if we use those we are stepping away from the re-theme and entering into modding the game, I am unsure about doing this, firstly because I like the challenge of achieving the retheme without changing the rules and secondly because adding a comma to whats in there means playtesting and the pledge has not even arrived yet...
As a rule of the thumb an attribute should have the half effect of an other card.
Ex :
The swift, the cunning is an half D'ARC
The storm, the shadow, the cunning are half secret passage
Keeping that in mind it is not so hard to create new attribute that do not unbalance the game.

At the end we certainly need to make some change in the rules as we have only 17 attributes and 6 house times 8 character (48 characters) keeping the same attribute that means attribute should appear two or three times in the character deck.

One idea could also to attribute the attendant power to the character
with 17 attributes and 6 attendants it is almost 2 times each to fit the 48 characters. That was my choice with JAUFRE becoming Maergery Tyrell
Let's try to remove my special attribute
STARK
the bastard (Jon Snow)
the storm (Robb Stark)
the loyal (Eddard Stark)
the tyrant (Roose Bolton)
the ordinary (the Blackfish)
the cursed (Cathelyn Stark)
the beauty (Sansa Stark)
the harbor lady (Amarylis Manderly) see GAUTHIER except it is port

the beauty is the opposite of the ugly : To marry her the other family must pay you 2 deniers

LANNISTER
the ugly (Tyrion Lannnister)
the cruel (Joffrey -Lannister-)
the strategist (Tywin Lannister) see ANCELIN
the fearless (Jaime lannister)
the coward (Sandor Clegan)
the shrewd (Cersei Lannister) see JAUFRE
the bohemian (Gena Lannister) see ESMERALDA
the good (Dorna Swyft)

TYRELL
the blessed (Mace Tyrell)
the swift (Loras Tyrell)
the ordinary (Garlan Tyrell)
the cunning (Randyll Tyrell)
the heart breacker (Garlan Tyrell)
the shrewd (Maergery Tyrell) see JAUFRE
the thief (Queen of Thorn) see ARSENE
the unlucky (Talla Tarly)

BARATHEON
the good (Stannis Baratheon)
the extravagant (Renly Baratheon)
the onion knight (Ser Davos) see GAUTHIER (except it is port)
the ambitious (Salladhor Saan)
the bastard (Edric Strom)
the bohemian (Melisandre) see ESMERALDA
the loyal (Brienne of tharth)
the ordinary (Selyse Baratheon)

MARTELL
the extravagant (Oberyn Martell)
the blessed (Doran Martell)
the thief (Trystane Martell) see ARSENE
the storm (Darkstar)
the tyrant (Manfrey Martell)
the Ambitious (Arianne Martell)
the spy (Olenna Martell) see MATHILDE
the swift (Obara Sand)

ARRYN
the coward (Robbin Arryn)
the heart breaker (Lord Baylish)
the loyal (Marwyn Belmore)
the cursed (Vardis Eggen)
the fearless (Lyn Corbray)
the cruel (Lysa Arryn)
the spy (Anya Waynwood) see MATHILDE
the unlucky (Ysilla Royce)

the shrewd is a bit like JAUFRE : -If Cersei\Maergery will become queen, the player receive an additional vote during the King election-
 
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Ivan Alaiz
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I thing we are getting much closer, I dont like to use the attendants twice and I want to use them for the house abilities but I dont have any problem repeating attributes.

I agree that the attributes you propose should not heavily affect tha game. My proposal:

STARK: I am thinking of dropping eddard as he dies soon and when he is alive there is much less war...
the bastard (Jon Snow)
the storm (Robb Stark)
the ??? (Rickard Karstark)Lord of Karhold
the tyrant (Roose Bolton) Lord of the Dreadfort
the ordinary (Greatjon Umber) Lord of Last Hearth (I want to save the blackfish to make the tullys a house playable on their own)
the cursed (Cathelyn Stark)
the beauty (Sansa Stark)
the ??? (Lady Maege Mormont) Lord of Bear Island


the beauty is the opposite of the ugly : To marry her the other family must pay you 2 deniers

LANNISTER
the ugly (Tyrion Lannnister)
the cruel (Joffrey -Lannister-)
the ??? (Tywin Lannister)
the fearless (Jaime lannister)
the coward (Sandor Clegane)
the ???(Cersei Lannister)
the ??? (Elys Westerling)
the good (Dorna Swyft)

TYRELL
the blessed (Mace Tyrell)
the swift (Loras Tyrell) (could also be a "bastard")
the ordinary (Garlan Tyrell)
the cunning (Randyll Tyrell)
the heart breacker (Garlan Tyrell)
the ??? (Maergery Tyrell)
the ??? (Queen of Thorns)
the unlucky (Talla Tarly)
The ??? (Paxter Redwyne)
the ??? (Randyll Tarly)

BARATHEON
the good (Stannis Baratheon)
the extravagant (Renly Baratheon)
the ??? (Ser Davos)
the ambitious (Salladhor Saan)
the bastard (Edric Strom)
the ??? Beric Dondarrion
the loyal (Brienne of tharth)
the ordinary (Selyse Baratheon)

MARTELL
the extravagant (Oberyn Martell)
the blessed (Doran Martell)
the ??? (Beric Dayne) Lord of Starfall
the storm (Darkstar)
the tyrant (Manfrey Martell)
the Ambitious (Arianne Martell)
the ??? (Olenna Martell)
the swift (Obara Sand)
the bastard Arys Oakheart (may not marry as he is white guard)
the ??? Lady Larra Blackmont, Lady of Blackmont.


ARRYN
the coward (Robbin Arryn)
the heart breaker (Lord Baylish)
the loyal (Marwyn Belmore)
the cursed (Vardis Eggen)
the fearless (Lyn Corbray)
the cruel (Lysa Arryn)
the spy (Anya Waynwood) see MATHILDE
the unlucky (Ysilla Royce)

I plan also to create Greyjoy and Tully to give moer opening possibilities and more replayability, using basically each attribute roughly three times.
 
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Sdric
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I dont like to use the attendants twice and I want to use them for the house abilities but I dont have any problem repeating attributes.

If the attendant power is with character then you do not use the attendant
The issue with using the attendant
how do you elegantly deal adding Greyjoy and Tully 8 playable houses and only 6 attendants ?

If Cersei/Maergery the shrewd much more thematic than an obscure ministrel attendant -If Cersei/Maergery will become queen, the player receive an additional vote during the King election-

TULLY
Edmure Tully,
Brynden Tully, the Blackfish.
Walder Frey,
Clement Piper,
Jason Mallister,
Barbara Bracken,
Mariya Darry,
Eleanor Mooton.

GREYJOY
Balon Greyjoy,
Theon Greyjoy,
Euron Greyjoy, the "Crow's Eye".
Victarion Greyjoy,
Aeron Greyjoy, the "Damphair".
Asha Greyjoy,
Gysella Goodbrother,
Gwynesse Harlaw.
 
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Ivan Alaiz
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sdric wrote:

The issue with using the attendant is how do you elegantly deal adding Greyjoy and Tully 8 playable houses and only 6 attendants ?



We will have to give the same attendant to more than one house and make them exclusive (if you play house A then house B cannot be played) or make up 2 more house abilities (We can ask if more attendants were playtested to the editors...)

I like both Tully and Greyjoy as you propose them, we need to think the attributes.

On Margaery: The ability is tyrells anyhow, only Cersei would "lose" it.
 
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Sdric
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Attendant :
For Greyjoy, the port collector seems obvious (like Lannister but with port)
For Tully, the thief because of Frey
For Stark, this house ignore famine (winter is coming)

I am not sure attendant should be character is just a power related to the house.
Then Melisandre can be a character, it is hard to find enough powerful Ladies for the game)



the beauty is the opposite of the ugly : To marry her the other family must pay you 2 deniers
STARK
the bastard (Jon Snow)
the storm (Robb Stark)
the swift (Rickard Karstark) Lord of Karhold
the tyrant (Roose Bolton) Lord of the Dreadfort
the ordinary (Greatjon Umber) Lord of Last Hearth
the cursed (Cathelyn Stark)
the beauty (Sansa Stark)
the good (Lady Maege Mormont) Lord of Bear Island

LANNISTER
the ugly (Tyrion Lannnister)
the cruel (Joffrey -Lannister-)
the cunning (Tywin Lannister)
the fearless (Jaime lannister)
the coward (Sandor Clegane)
the persuasive(Cersei Lannister)
the ordinary (Elys Westerling)
the ambitious (Dorna Swyft)

TYRELL
the blessed (Mace Tyrell)
the swift (Loras Tyrell) (could also be a "bastard")
the extravagant (Garlan Tyrell)
the cunning (Randyll Tarly)
the heart breacker (Garlan Tyrell)
the beauty (Maergery Tyrell)
the ugly (Queen of Thorns)
the unlucky (Talla Tarly)

BARATHEON
the good (Stannis Baratheon)
the extravagant (Renly Baratheon)
the storm (Ser Davos)
the ambitious (Salladhor Saan)
the bastard (Edric Strom)
the shadow (Melissandre)
the loyal (Brienne of tharth)
the ordinary (Selyse Baratheon)

MARTELL
the extravagant (Oberyn Martell)
the bastard (Arys Oakheart),white guard
the blessed (Beric Dayne) Lord of Starfall
the storm (Darkstar)
the tyrant (Manfrey Martell)
the heart breaker (Arianne Martell)
the fearless (Larra Blackmont), Lady of Blackmont
the unlucky (Obara Sand)

ARRYN
the coward (Robbin Arryn)
the heart breaker (Lord Baylish)
the loyal (Marwyn Belmore)
the cursed (Vardis Eggen)
the fearless (Lyn Corbray)
the cruel (Lysa Arryn)
the spy (Anya Waynwood) see MATHILDE
the unlucky (Ysilla Royce)

TULLY
the cursed (Edmure Tully)
the persuasive (Brynden Tully) the Blackfish
the coward (Walder Frey)
the loyal (Clement Piper)
the shadow (Jason Mallister)
the persuasive (Barbara Bracken)
the good (Mariya Darry)
the swift (Eleanor Mooton)

GREYJOY
the cunning (Theon Greyjoy)
the cruel (Euron Greyjoy) the "Crow's Eye".
the shadow (Victarion Greyjoy)
the tyrant (Aeron Greyjoy), the "Damphair".
the ugly (Dagmar Cleftjaw)
the ambitious (Asha Greyjoy)
the beauty (Gysella Goodbrother)
the blessed (Gwynesse Harlaw)


Each attribute 3 times + 1 spy
 
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Ivan Alaiz
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Thx a lot Sdric! On the characters I will go with that (or 95% that).

Ok on melissandre, I just read the relic rules, I am thinking on making her a "saint" and give a concrete relic she can retrieve only if baratheon controls a concrete city (sainte lance --> Flaming sword of the chosen +1 to total combat result).

Give also "saint" to cathelyn stark so she can retrieve the teeth relic (thoros of Myr, resurrects people once per game)

Also give "saint" to Margaery so she can retrieve the bones (ending famine), update anya waynwood attribute, leaving her the spy was an oversight.

So three saints (to keep with the three of each)!, the cool thing about the "saint" attribute is that we get to use the relics for thematic purposes without having the wearer of the relic to be ordained in the church. Obviouslly the attribute name needs to be reworded.

On the houses:

Stark: Strategist (religion issue, stark bishops dont fit)
Lannister: Spy (varys)
Tyrell: Minstrel, tyrell ladies are cunning!
Baratheon: Bohemian (religion not an issue given the timeline, there are two branches of the baratheon, renly did profess the faith of the seven)
Martell: Weather relic power in dorne (its always sunny in Dorne)
Arryn: Saint grial relic power in the Vale cities and towns (very hard to attack the arryn, if that is overpowered only in the erye)
Tully: Toll Bridge (the twins!)
Greyjoy: Thief (sacking places)

What would you think about adding Targaryen as a playable house? From a thematic perspective targaryen could always decide to invade earlier... (I just want to be able to play such a cool house) The house power: Freedom to start wherever they want! They just disembarked... Also they are the last player to place and the last in turn order. I think that this mechanic might very well help balance the board when needed.

That way we get only to use 2/3rds of the houses in each game which gives us plenty of replayability and placement freedom, specially with targaryen to balance the board if it becomes too "northern heavy".

The only "But" to this idea is that a game without lannister would be weird. Maybe we could define 2 or 3 "core" houses that always need to be chosen, such as Lannister, Tyrell and Baratheon...

Things that are still open:

I am still struggling figuring out of the cardinals and the bishops, the bishoprics are the most frequent votes, the cardinals are randomly given...

Small council and Hand of the king, any fit? Making the heir title the hand of the king would not work would it?

Order of maesters, any fit?
 
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Nice work with all those characters! Especially impressive, that you managed to come out with 3 of each attribute + spy. But while there are bound to be some less than perfect fits, I have a few nitpicks about some of the character attributes. There is one caveat: The following suggestions are made without much thought to balance.

Stark
- The Greatjon as ordinary? Fearless would be a better fit. Maybe exchange attributes with Larra Blackmont from Martell?

Lannister
- Tyrion as ugly and The Hound as coward. I see where you're coming from, but the Hound is specifically afraid of fire, not a coward in general, and in the books Tyrion really is disfigured after the Blackwater. But how about making the Hound ugly, Tyrion good, and the Tully's Mariya Darry a coward (or some other woman associated with them). The Tully's already have two persuasive characters, which seems very powerful.

Tyrell
- The Queen of Thorns as ugly doesn't make much sense. Thematically, I think that no one would marry her, even if they were given gold, because she is way too old to bear anymore children. So, as far as its effect goes bastard would be a better fit.

Martell
- Oberyn is extravagant, but I believe that heartbreaker would be a perfect fit.

Greyjoy
- Aeron doesn't really come across a tyrant in the books imo. How about the Storm for him? As a Drowned Man he should know how to withstand the Storm God after all.
 
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Now I am spamming myself with another random thought, what if we abandon the idea of doing a re-theme and go for a variant instead... that means changing rules slightly to make a better fit

Things I would like to do with that:
- Change the map connexions (not the amount of conexions per node nor hierarchy of the regions)

- Drop the importance of the church, I would rather intrigue (vote) for who becomes hand of the king or master of coin etc... than for bishops
- Bishops --> "royal administrators" of an area... they only pick among "married responsible men" hence they still cannot be married XD, the levy taxes on behalf of the crown (who are then sadly diverted to their house treasury)
- Cardinals --> small council members and high septon
- Pope --> Hand of the king, cannot disolve marriages (high septon does)

- Transform the teutonic knight mechanics
- Knights cannot attack other players (like templars)
- Always defend the wall even if no lord of the nightwatch is chosen
- Higher crusade rank
- Add some more noble attributes as sdric suggested
- Add the Iron bank loan event card
- Transform the crusade mechanics
- Less "money" objectives
- Horn Relic objective instead of healer
- Add an extra assasination card (high character mortality in this universe)

Which option do you think would be best?

Pros- Theme, easier mechanics
Cons- Balancing, no longer playing "the same game"
 
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Ivan Alaiz
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MordredPendragon wrote:
Nice work with all those characters! Especially impressive, that you managed to come out with 3 of each attribute + spy. But while there are bound to be some less than perfect fits, I have a few nitpicks about some of the character attributes. There is one caveat: The following suggestions are made without much thought to balance.

Stark
- The Greatjon as ordinary? Fearless would be a better fit. Maybe exchange attributes with Larra Blackmont from Martell?

Lannister
- Tyrion as ugly and The Hound as coward. I see where you're coming from, but the Hound is specifically afraid of fire, not a coward in general, and in the books Tyrion really is disfigured after the Blackwater. But how about making the Hound ugly, Tyrion good, and the Tully's Mariya Darry a coward (or some other woman associated with them). The Tully's already have to persuasive characters, which seems very powerful.

Tyrell
- The Queen of Thorns as ugly doesn't make much sense. Thematically, I think that no one would marry her, even if they were given gold, because she is way too old to bear anymore children. So, as far as its effect goes bastard would be a better fit.

Martell
- Oberyn is extravagant, but I believe that heartbreaker would be a perfect fit.

Greyjoy
- Aeron doesn't really come across a tyrant in the books imo. How about the Storm for him? As a Drowned Man he should know how to withstand the Storm God after all.


I agree with your views... I am also concerned about the balance.
Ill create an spreadsheet to keep track annd have better balance visibility (at least good vs bad traits)
 
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Sebastian Samberg
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Having fiddled quite a lot with gliffy by now, I am all for changing the board layout where necessary. I am not so sure though how that could be done without changing the amount of connexions per node here and there. That said, I have come up with a few layouts that require changing very little.

Images to come soon...
 
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Sdric
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M0ebius wrote:

- Drop the importance of the church, I would rather intrigue (vote) for who becomes hand of the king or master of coin etc... than for bishops
- Bishops --> "royal administrators" of an area... they only pick among "married responsible men" hence they still cannot be married XD, the levy taxes on behalf of the crown (who are then sadly diverted to their house treasury)
- Cardinals --> small council members and high septon
- Pope --> Hand of the king, cannot dissolve marriages (high septon does)

Good idea : Bishop = Warden
RP explanation of "cannot marry" : A warden cannot officially represent a house in an alliance that why the wedding of a warden cannot be political.
Dissolve marriage can shorter the game witch is good, the high septon should correspond to the cardinal card we can buy, that should be a bid with a minimal value of 5 deniers and obtain the power to dissolve marriage and excommunicate.

Pope=Hand of the King, should act as regent if no king is elected and obtain the King power, that will compensate the lost of to dissolve marriage and excommunicate.

M0ebius wrote:

- Transform the teutonic knight mechanics
- Knights cannot attack other players (like templars)
- Always defend the wall even if no lord of the nightwatch is chosen
- Higher crusade rank

I like it even i don't like the secret passage between castle witch seems anti-thematic. I will replace it by the free knight like the templar. No wedding and no fief title (Nigthwatch vow).

M0ebius wrote:

- Add some more noble attributes as sdric suggested
- Add the Iron bank loan event card

More rule, longer games usually, I am not a big fan to add too much
Let's try with a minimum of new rules

M0ebius wrote:

- Transform the crusade mechanics
- Less "money" objectives
- Horn Relic objective instead of healerr

If you do not add too much extra rules I am OK, rather than money
free troops (rally freefolk)
eventually a mouving trebuchet (rally a giant)
The victory point obtain behind the wall should not be fief title and the Nightwatch brother should be elligible to grab them ex:'Defender of the realms'
M0ebius wrote:

- Add an extra assasination card (high character mortality in this universe)

I am not a big fan, the game will be longer.
 
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Ivan Alaiz
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@Sdric On the map: I cannot use that without the numbers, the numbers indicate to what bishopric the city belong, the best you fit the nodes to the colors, the more difficult to trace the bishopric lines. Also we need to keep all cities of the same colour within the same region as much as possible otherwise the fiefdom = westeros region is also broken.

Variant vs retheme: Agreed, the closer to a retheme the better, no fiddling with the cards (no extra assasination) and no special abilities, if we stick to proven mechanics it should not be unbalanced.

I like your suggestions on the crusade mechanics a lot but we can still grant at least one fiefdom title, in the novels the "gift" was land finally traded...

That said I am still unclear on the warden=bishop it was my initial proposal but as someone proposed its equally a stretch as the warden of the north does not levy taxes on the north and its equally as weird having a tully or a greyjoy as warden of the north....

@MondredPendragon Im looking forward to see the outcome of your fiddlin, you could propose 2 versions, a re-themed one (identical) and a variant (changing some connexions...


What do you think of my proposal to repurpose the relics and saint attributes?
 
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Sebastian Samberg
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On the board layout

So here is my latest result on the board layout. The red line is an original connexion to be deleted and the green ones are new/redirected connexions. So if you imagine the green lines were not there then the layout would be unchanged. However it would be strange then why there is no road from King's Landing to Harrenhal as there should be the King's Road between them. Thus the new connexion. Also, having to go via Harrenhal to reach Riverrun from the Westerlands (probable from Golden Tooth) would be strange, so that connexion has been redirected.
As per this version Moat Cailin is part of the Riverlands. The red nodes can easily be relocated a bit south so that they actually are all in the Riverlands, but then they would correlate to less known towns. So here recognition value was preferred to the actual political boundaries. Maybe that could also be excused with the close relationship between the houses Tully and Stark (at least in the beginning).
Getting the bishoprics right is quite a pain, but I think the distribution is ok in this layout, only #1 and #2 are a somewhat strange in relation to each other, but I couldn't help it without more redirecting of connexions.
A general difficulty is that Fief has 8 fiefs, but there are 9 regions in Westeros. Therefore this version considers the Crownlands and the Stormlands to be one. After all, Robert was the King so I think that making these two into one fief makes more sense than any other combination.

So yeah, here it goes:


Regarding the other matters:

I like the idea with the saint attributes a lot! It brings another load of theme. Generally, making the Crusades into Wildling brawls is a good idea, but as you two already pointed out it will take some changes. These need to be made to work with any changes made to the holy order rules for the Night's Watch.
The issue of the church is probably the trickiest. Making it the Faith of the Seven is problematic because of the Iron Islands and the North. Yet making it the small council is strange because I imagine the pope and the king are pretty much independent of each other in Fief, but the King and his Hand are heavily intertwined in Westeros. It would be strange why the King couldn't just get rid of the Hand and even more so why the Hand could excommunicate the King. Maybe Sdric's idea of splitting the pope's powers among the Small Council members + High Speton should be elaborated upon. I think the number of votes needn't be changed. Here a few suggestions off the top of my head:

- Hand of the King = Victory Point + small council (cardinal) cards cannot be played without his consent, (tithe the whole realm?)
- High Septon = Dissolve Marriages
- Master of Coin = Tithe one bishopric not his own OR the whole realm (problem: it wouldn't make thematic sense if anyone but the Master of Coin (and maybe the Hand) could levy tithes.
- Master of Law = Immune from Justice card

Still problematic: The relation of the Small Council and the King. Maybe all Small Council titles could be bought and the King can give them for free and therefore the King cannot give Fiefs for free anymore? Then however, why wouldn't the King simply make his own brother Hand(as often was the case in Westeros iirc) to get another VP? The restriction that the Hand must be from another house seems artificial.

 
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