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Subject: HB: The Foundry - NEXT/Grail decks rss

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Shawn Neibaur
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siowy wrote:
I played NEXT/Grail the first week that lancelot came out.

They underperformed. Can't remember why. But they were worse in practice.

It's worth trying it again if the archetype interests you. Merlin can really make Grail ice sing.
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Yi Sheng Siow
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yea, especially with executive boot camp. it's worth trying again.

my advice to anyone trying it...
3 executive boot camp
6 next ice
6 grail ice
don't play other ice
3 archived memories
1-3 interns (archived and interns for anti-parasite, and recursion of executive boot camp if they trash it early)

priority is to quickly play a boot camp behind an ice, and start drawing out ice from there.

ideally, get 5-6 next ice rezzed, then score by making them run through multiple times with ash(or caprice).
 
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Stephen Parkes
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Had tremendous fun with this yesterday. Killed a mate with a double Merlin. Also now running 3 x EBC and 3 x Peak Efficiency, which is just bonkers. Was playing against a Kit deck last night and got Eschered, but used my one-of Isabel Mcguire to undo the worst of the damage and pulled it back for an epic win. Have also included a one-of Alix T4lb0t, which, if you get it out early enough (and EBC can help) provides a nice early game economy boost.

I like this deck a lot, though I haven't played any parasite decks with it yet...
 
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Zeb
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I think it's best to either play NEXT or Grail, not both. Grail is probably stronger too.
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Shawn Neibaur
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Zebadiah wrote:
I think it's best to either play NEXT or Grail, not both. Grail is probably stronger too.

That's kind of a surprising sentiment Zeb, given that both of them work great with the Foundry it seems like you would want to keep pushing that synergy. Why wouldn't you take both?
 
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Zeb
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Tolheim wrote:
Zebadiah wrote:
I think it's best to either play NEXT or Grail, not both. Grail is probably stronger too.

That's kind of a surprising sentiment Zeb, given that both of them work great with the Foundry it seems like you would want to keep pushing that synergy. Why wouldn't you take both?

They both have synergy with the Foundry, but not with each other. I found that putting in all the NEXT and Grail ice made for an awkward ice suite that abandoned balanced roles in favor of overall power level. In addition, I don't think the NEXT suite is as good as some alternatives, mainly because NEXT Silver dies to parasite and NEXT Bronze takes a while to exceed Yog.

I've had more success with Grail alone, and tailoring my deck around that.
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Steven Tu
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I find you need to stick with the one or the other, having both Grail and NEXT suite means you either have nothing but ICE or you have to give up on some other already decent by themselves ICE like Eli and Ichi 1.

I've had more success with NEXT alone because I don't have to horde them in my hand and my hand and NEXT ability is already a big load on the hand (and thus agenda flow). And they ETR/tax better than the Grail set.
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Yi Sheng Siow
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i actually much prefer the NEXT suite because they can be really hard to break once you get 4+ rezzed and you can outarchived/interns their parasites, whereas the grail suite are just a bunch of somewhat efficient ice that heavily punish if the runner doesn't break, but isn't very effective if the runner can simply break them.
 
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Brad Metz
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No matter how you slice it, Grail ice is taxing. Assuming you hold two: each one has three subroutines. Apart from a couple high power breakers, that's costing more cash or power counters than the runner's okay with.
 
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Zeb
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siowy wrote:
i actually much prefer the NEXT suite because they can be really hard to break once you get 4+ rezzed...

And there you have your problem
Parasite is too prevalent and too powerful against NEXT.
 
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Captain Frisk
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Zebadiah wrote:
siowy wrote:
i actually much prefer the NEXT suite because they can be really hard to break once you get 4+ rezzed...

And there you have your problem
Parasite is too prevalent and too powerful against NEXT.

Parasite on demand is also strong vs. Grail. You'd really like to keep the the merlins in hand, and lancelot and galahad fall quickly with even a little datasucker support.
 
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Brad Metz
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Is this archetype really any more susceptible to parasite recursion than any other? Typically one gets ice out quickly, so datasucker tokens are costly to build up. Foundry decks often have some mechanism for recursion as well, so ice can be reinstalled and the deck usually has tools for installing ice quickly (apart from just the ID). If grail is used, there's ample opportunity for program trashing. Yeah, the ice is generally weak, but with a nice bit of asset economy, wiping counters just puts the runner in a deep hole. I'll contend that I may not be seeing the full punishment of parasite in my meta (which I doubt, given how many decks make use of it), but I think that parasite is more terrifying in concept than in execution.
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Stephen Parkes
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I'll post my decklist later but I've been having fun overscoring Project Vetruvius in my Foundry deck.
 
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Steven Tu
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There's basically no way to justify the 9 influence spend on the Grails as a set when I also need Jacksons and other stuff too. (other stuff is important here, Foundry needs a LOT of money to run smoothly). Also the net damages on the Merlins are just a nice once off disruptive force which doesn't really do that much else since you're not gunning for a kill. And they're expensive to rez.

The problem also with Grail is that if you hold grails you can't play grails. If you don't play Grails your Foundry gives you nothing.

While Parasites can disrupt a Next suite, it's not like that's all you run. I also run at least 2x Lotus Fields in my Foundry, and those two Influence are SO much better spent than 9x on Grails. Also, you can also stock Architects if you're so worried about Parasites. Jackson + Foundry also means you get your Ice back in short(ish) order.
 
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Brad Metz
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Tuism wrote:
There's basically no way to justify the 9 influence spend on the Grails as a set when I also need Jacksons and other stuff too. (other stuff is important here, Foundry needs a LOT of money to run smoothly). Also the net damages on the Merlins are just a nice once off disruptive force which doesn't really do that much else since you're not gunning for a kill. And they're expensive to rez.

The problem also with Grail is that if you hold grails you can't play grails. If you don't play Grails your Foundry gives you nothing.

While Parasites can disrupt a Next suite, it's not like that's all you run. I also run at least 2x Lotus Fields in my Foundry, and those two Influence are SO much better spent than 9x on Grails. Also, you can also stock Architects if you're so worried about Parasites. Jackson + Foundry also means you get your Ice back in short(ish) order.

Hehe, it's starting to look like there's a lot of NEXT only and Grail only camps out there. I gotta say, I think the influence on grail is very well spent. You only need to hold 2 of the 9 pieces of ice and if you aren't burdened with NEXT as well, you can use the wealth of HB ice to fortify the other. I cannot overstate the value of Merlin enough. The surprise net damage is fun, but forcing the player to seek out a code gate and the money to deal with it is it's true value. I have runners that know Merlin could be there and all their sentry tricks to confidently face check ice are useless (until they hit lancelot)...this delays everyone except kit for at least a couple turns, which often opens up a scoring window. I'll further posit that having up to 7 3-sub ice is better than up to 9 slivers any day, but given that I dumped next pretty quickly, I can't really say that with any authority.

 
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Yi Sheng Siow
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Zebadiah wrote:
siowy wrote:
i actually much prefer the NEXT suite because they can be really hard to break once you get 4+ rezzed...

And there you have your problem
Parasite is too prevalent and too powerful against NEXT.

3 interns 3 archived works well vs this if you're depending on next ice. together with the usual 3 jacksons, of course.
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Steven Tu
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dengue wrote:
Tuism wrote:
There's basically no way to justify the 9 influence spend on the Grails as a set when I also need Jacksons and other stuff too. (other stuff is important here, Foundry needs a LOT of money to run smoothly). Also the net damages on the Merlins are just a nice once off disruptive force which doesn't really do that much else since you're not gunning for a kill. And they're expensive to rez.

The problem also with Grail is that if you hold grails you can't play grails. If you don't play Grails your Foundry gives you nothing.

While Parasites can disrupt a Next suite, it's not like that's all you run. I also run at least 2x Lotus Fields in my Foundry, and those two Influence are SO much better spent than 9x on Grails. Also, you can also stock Architects if you're so worried about Parasites. Jackson + Foundry also means you get your Ice back in short(ish) order.

Hehe, it's starting to look like there's a lot of NEXT only and Grail only camps out there. I gotta say, I think the influence on grail is very well spent. You only need to hold 2 of the 9 pieces of ice and if you aren't burdened with NEXT as well, you can use the wealth of HB ice to fortify the other. I cannot overstate the value of Merlin enough. The surprise net damage is fun, but forcing the player to seek out a code gate and the money to deal with it is it's true value. I have runners that know Merlin could be there and all their sentry tricks to confidently face check ice are useless (until they hit lancelot)...this delays everyone except kit for at least a couple turns, which often opens up a scoring window. I'll further posit that having up to 7 3-sub ice is better than up to 9 slivers any day, but given that I dumped next pretty quickly, I can't really say that with any authority.


Having 7 3-sub ice if you hold two cards in hand for perpetuity. How were you gonna find those 7 anyway? I can power through my Next ICE if the runner runs. Easily. Grail are cards that you'd have to play out if you wanted to draw more ICE. How do you play ICE and hold ICE at the same time? By blind drawing. Oh look, here comes more cards. How big is your hand?

Without the grail ICE, I still have Lotus Fields (better than Merlin) and Ichi 1.0 (better than Lancelot) and Eli (just good) who are taxing without preconditions. And with those I have 6 more influence to play with. 6 is no joke
 
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Erik Twice
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dengue wrote:
No matter how you slice it, Grail ice is taxing. Assuming you hold two: each one has three subroutines. Apart from a couple high power breakers, that's costing more cash or power counters than the runner's okay with.
They are not bad, but three credits per ICE is not really that taxing. You will have 3-4 of them, that's 9-12 credits to break through which is affordable.

The great thing about Grail ICE is how it punishes facecheking, IMHO.
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Zeb
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Yeah, Grail prevents the runner from running too early which I'm always a fan of, as well as costing the runner a lot of credits after they do have their breakers.
 
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Yi Sheng Siow
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bioroids are more taxing than grail.
grail are more punishing.
 
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Steven Tu
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Grails may be more punishing - but that's only if you have Merlin. The program trash is as useful as Rototurret for 1 influence AND built in ETR.

And after you Foundry for the next (ha ha) ice when you rez one, you want to plop it down for it to get rezzed again...

Holding two ice in hand forever, is that really happening for most of you who've tried the Grail set?

The NEXT set is the ultimate in tax (of course, barring ice destruction, but then no ICE is taxing against destruction) and early the have rush potential because they're cheap and ETR very well.

NEXT gold will in fact push the NEXT set from kinda cool into bonkers, and possibly even able to stand up to destruction. If it ever comes out.
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Brad Metz
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I find that holding two ice is easy. But I have a few cards for pulling things back out of archives of needed so I'm not afraid to have a bloated hand at the end of a turn. Merlin existing is really sufficient for the Grail ice, not necessarily having it in hand. Not being able to face check safely until you have a Full breaker suite stalls a runner and opens up some early scoring windows. I know a lot of folk call out that NEXT opens up early scoring windows, too, but I just haven't experienced it. In my mind, NEXT is great once set up, but without a lot of rezzing tools, your suite takes a long time to be worth a damn. Grail, to me, doesn't suffer from that and is exactly ready to party the second it hits the table. It's probably a playstyle difference.
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Philip Goldfarb Styrt
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Tuism wrote:
Grails may be more punishing - but that's only if you have Merlin. The program trash is as useful as Rototurret for 1 influence AND built in ETR.

Let me start by saying I agree that the NEXT ice are great. But Grails are more punishing (than bioroids) because of their threat as well - program destruction on a non-sentry, non-destroyer, net damage on a non-sentry, non-AP, ETR on all three basic kinds of ICE, and now the powerful Excalibur subroutine anywhere. This makes it dangerous (to your grip, to your rig) to run without a full breaker suite, while also limiting the ability to make runs, regardless of danger (because of the potential for ETR and Excalibur). Facechecking bioroids can usually be done on early clicks with no penalty but clicks; face-checking Grail can hurt - and even if the cards aren't in the corps hand, the runner has to respect that until it's proven.
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Brad Metz
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So, I've been playing a Foundry/Grail destroyer deck for quite awhile and set it aside when Order and Chaos came out to play in the new Weyland space for awhile...but we got our NEXT Gold! So for the first time in awhile I'm coming back to NEXT ice. Anybody else excited for this? Are we going all-in Grail + NEXT?

I've got a build that cuts back on some of the varied program hate (e.g.: Will o the Wisp) to drop corporate troubleshooters in to ensure that a Gold lands at the opportune moment. Another key card is the ever-loved Executive boot camp. I'm a bit concerned about cash, with 8 cost ice in there, but otherwise I think this is a solid start.

My plan is mostly to rely on early fear of grail to rush and late NEXT stacking to keep an agenda safe for a scoring window (with the occasional Gold-assisted board reset). A thought that occurs to me, if I (or ya'll) can find room for it is Domestic sleepers - but that may be a white whale.

Knights who say next

The Foundry: Refining the Process (The Spaces Between)

Agenda (9)
3x Accelerated Beta Test (Core Set)
1x Eden Fragment (The Spaces Between)
2x Priority Requisition (Core Set)
3x Project Vitruvius (Cyber Exodus)

Asset (12)
3x Adonis Campaign (Core Set)
3x Eve Campaign (Humanity's Shadow)
3x Executive Boot Camp (All That Remains) •••
3x Jackson Howard (Opening Moves) •••

Upgrade (2)
2x Corporate Troubleshooter (Core Set)

Operation (6)
3x Hedge Fund (Core Set)
3x Peak Efficiency (Up and Over)

Barrier (6)
3x Galahad (Upstalk) •••
3x NEXT Silver (Upstalk)

Code Gate (6)
3x Merlin (All That Remains) •••
3x NEXT Bronze (Opening Moves)

Sentry (6)
3x Lancelot (First Contact) •••
3x NEXT Gold (The Valley)

Other (2)
2x Mother Goddess (Upstalk)
15 influence spent (max 15)
21 agenda points (between 20 and 21)
49 cards (min 45)
Cards up to The Valley

Deck built on NetrunnerDB.
 
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Nova Cat
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This is the deck I built recently. The agendas I picked are all 3-advance except NAPD Contracts, which is there because it taxes the runner to take it. Since it takes a minimum of 4 agendas for the runner to win, they need to run quite a bit, meaning I get to rez more ICE. Also, since they're almost all 3-advancement agendas, I can install them, then triple-advance and score them the next turn, never leaving them advanced and unscored for the runner to steal.

I've been trying to find room for a playset of Architects, but I haven't been able to make it work yet.

HB NEXT

The Foundry: Refining the Process (The Spaces Between)

Agenda (11)
3x Accelerated Beta Test (Core Set)
3x NAPD Contract (Double Time)
3x Project Vitruvius (Cyber Exodus)
2x Veterans Program (True Colors)

Asset (6)
3x Adonis Campaign (Core Set)
3x Jackson Howard (Opening Moves) •••

Upgrade (6)
3x Amazon Industrial Zone (Trace Amount) •••
3x Ash 2X3ZB9CY (What Lies Ahead)

Operation (6)
3x Hedge Fund (Core Set)
3x Peak Efficiency (Up and Over)

Barrier (6)
3x Galahad (Upstalk) •••
3x NEXT Silver (Upstalk)

Code Gate (6)
3x Merlin (All That Remains) •••
3x NEXT Bronze (Opening Moves)

Sentry (6)
3x Lancelot (First Contact) •••
3x NEXT Gold (The Valley)

Other (2)
1x Excalibur (The Source)
1x Mother Goddess (Upstalk)
15 influence spent (max 15)
20 agenda points (between 20 and 21)
49 cards (min 45)
Cards up to The Valley

Deck built on NetrunnerDB.
 
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