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Subject: McCain on Torture Report rss

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Dave G
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I regained some of the respect I used to have for John McCain after seeing this speech.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/09/politics/mccain-lauds-release-...

He's one of the few who's managed to rise above partisan jockeying and mud-slinging today, and I appreciate it. I'm appalled at the way others have made it a GOP/Democrat issue. It's despicable. The information revealed in this report is disgusting and brings shame to a country that ought to be better. This is a horror show, perpetrated by a GOP-led government AND a Democrat-led government. The report covers the Bush era, but Obama and the Democrats are fools if they think anyone believes that this bullshit stopped in January of 2009.

Congress at least has the flimsy excuse that they weren't fully aware of the atrocities being committed in the name of the US government, but the Presidential administrations have no such cover. For fuck's sake, Gul Rhaman--a man we tortured to death--is revealed in a footnote to have been held because of a mistaken identity.(Footnote 32, page 16)

Even better/worse: According to the NYT the report also includes 20 case studies that demonstrate that these extreme and disgusting methods produced no actionable intelligence. So what was the fucking point?

I know some of the conservatives here have defended "enhanced interrogation" techniques in the past. Is there anyone who still wants to stand by this now that we've seen the details? Besides Marco Rubio, I guess. And Mitch McConnell. And Saxby Chambliss. And...well, pretty much everyone on the right besides John fucking McCain.
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Dave G
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It also bears mentioning that the President is an absolute fucking coward, dissembling and trying to straddle the line rather than offering an opinion. Probably because he knows his own administration is guilty of the same crime. Still, for the leader of the country to look at this and sit back and say "We're not picking sides" is unconscionable. At least Bush and Cheney have the balls to say "fuck it, we did it and we don't really give a shit what you think."
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Yeah, but that highlights the problem with trying to audit a secretive organization. With how much accuracy could they really be audited on this, or pretty much anything. If you ask for the input of the CIA on it, to what extent can you trust what they provide?
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Dave G
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The report has pages and pages about the lies Hayden told to congressional committees. Why should we take him seriously?

More importantly, what else would you expect them to say? Your critical thinking skills are better than that. Point out those errors and tell me which ones make it so that the information in the report doesn't bother you? Did you read it, or just the inevitable denial?

According to the report, we "fed" prisoners by pureeing their food and forcing it into their rectums. You're ok waving that off with "in no way would we claim that we did everything perfectly?"

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bjlillo wrote:
It's being treated as a partisan issue because the "report" was produced entirely by Democrats without the input of the CIA. It's riddled with falsehoods and half-truths designed to invoke an emotional response from people. Looks like they're getting what they wanted out of you.

Quote:
The Senate Intelligence Committee’s report on Central Intelligence Agency detention and interrogation of terrorists, prepared only by the Democratic majority staff, is a missed opportunity to deliver a serious and balanced study of an important public policy question. The committee has given us instead a one-sided study marred by errors of fact and interpretation—essentially a poorly done and partisan attack on the agency that has done the most to protect America after the 9/11 attacks.

Examining how the CIA handled these matters is an important subject of continuing relevance to a nation still at war. In no way would we claim that we did everything perfectly, especially in the emergency and often-chaotic circumstances we confronted in the immediate aftermath of 9/11. As in all wars, there were undoubtedly things in our program that should not have happened. When we learned of them, we reported such instances to the CIA inspector general or the Justice Department and sought to take corrective action.

The country and the CIA would have benefited from a more balanced study of these programs and a corresponding set of recommendations. The committee’s report is not that study. It offers not a single recommendation.


More at the link. McCain is still a schmuck.


Yeah, because it's not like the guys in charge of the agency when it was torturing people would have any reason to dissemble, right?

I do love the irony of this paragraph from the WSJ piece:

Quote:
Our view on this is shared by the CIA and the Senate Intelligence Committee’s Republican minority, both of which are releasing rebuttals to the majority’s report. Both critiques are clear-eyed, fact-based assessments that challenge the majority’s contentions in a nonpartisan way.
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BJ - on this one the Republicans are the kid who shoots his parents then seeks the mercy of the court because he is an orphan. The investigation started as a bipartisan review. Then the Republican Senators withdrew their participation. Now they complain that the report was the work of Senate majority staffers only.

And I am sure you recall the CIA's efforts to obstruct the investigation.

If the Senate Democrats wanted to use this as a partisan hatchet job, you would see a lot more in the way of attacks on the Republican administration. This report is about oversight, something the US intelligence community desperately needs, and hasn't seen at any point since 9/11.

If you want to point to falsehoods and half-truths in the report, go ahead - I'm interested. If you disagree about the morals of using the methods the CIA used, that's on your conscience. If you draw different conclusions about the value of the intelligence obtained, you are certainly not alone. But complaining about the process, that's just silly.
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djgutierrez77 wrote:
I know some of the conservatives here have defended "enhanced interrogation" techniques in the past. Is there anyone who still wants to stand by this now that we've seen the details? Besides Marco Rubio, I guess. And Mitch McConnell. And Saxby Chambliss. And... well, pretty much everyone on the right besides John fucking McCain.

Be sure to note the Republicans who are defending the Bush/Cheney's administration on the torture issue because some of them are currently encouraging Jeb Bush to run for President in 2016.

Why is that significant?

Jeb Bush is one of the founding charter members of the former Project For A New American Century think thank (now renamed and reconstituted as "The Foreign Policy Initiative") whose neo-con agenda the Bush/Cheney adopted.

Right now, the neo-cons' support is divided between two extremes: Texas Republican U.S. Senator Ted Cruz and former Florida Republican Governor Jeb Bush.

Over the past week at the "Middle East In Chaos" conference in Washington, D.C., Ted Cruz shared the same stage with William Kristol, founder & director of the original Project For A New American Century think tank.

The topic of Cruz's speech was "America in a Changing World". William Kristol, also founder & editor of The Weekly Standard as well as being a board member of the Foreign Policy Initiative board member, spoke about "Rebuilding the American Defense Consensus." If that speech title sounds familiar, that's because "Rebuilding America's Defenses" was the title of the policy paper (i.e. blueprint) advocated by the Project For A New American Century think tank that the Bush/Cheney administration co-opted and adopted which called for the invasion of Iraq, Iran, and North Korea.

Thus far, Ted Cruz has also been garnering early support from neo-cons that threatens to eclipse that they've normally given tothe Bushes.

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djgutierrez77 wrote:
The report has pages and pages about the lies Hayden told to congressional committees. Why should we take him seriously?


Well, it's not like anyone is going to get prosecuted for lying to Congress.
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A billion Republicans screaming for hillary's head on a stick with no evidence of any wrongdoing = 100% objective.

An exhaustively researched report which frankly tells us something that honestly every single American wishes was not true regardless of party written by democrats = must be lies because democrats.

Because it's going to be such great political hay for Obama to have to tell Americans that they aren't as good and awesome as they think they are. That always goes over great, and he's certainly taking advantage of it.
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Lance Roberts (who I talked about in the other thread) was talking about this.

He basically said, "The ends justify the means even if we torture a few innocent people and if the information has been shown to be of lower value."

I was appalled.

He basically said anything we did to others we were fighting was okay because it was us vs them.

That's basically a prescription for war crimes and war crime tribunals.

If someone believes torture is justified, they should be willing to go to prison for having committed torture and suffer the punishment we give to torturers and murderers.

We might give them leniency but we need a bright line here.

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Neontek wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
we "fed" prisoners by pureeing their food and forcing it into their rectums.


Can someone provide me a link to the full report pdf somewhere?
Apart from two newspaper articles on page71 of the local newspaper, I haven't seen any info this explicit.


Here.
 
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Good on McCain as far as it goes.

I used to be proud to also be American. That stopped when the US started openly torturing people, when the US gov't started claiming the US Constitution only applies to certain people.
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whac3 wrote:
Good on McCain as far as it goes.

I used to be proud to also be American. That stopped when the US started openly torturing people, when the US gov't started claiming the US Constitution only applies to certain people.


The US Constitution is for US citizens and others (resident aliens, foreign visitors, etc., etc.) covered in its purview or as interpreted by Court decisions.

Its protections do not extend to others.

However, there are plenty of other treaties that do--say, for instance, international prohibitions on torture to which the US is party, the Geneva Convention, the Laws of Land Warfare, etc. etc.

There are plenty of other protections, that, if adhered to, would protect people's rights without making the whole world somehow honorary US citizens.

Diis

PS: If I've misinterpreted the direction you were going with this comment, my apolgoies.
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Ron Paul was entirely against torture, probably more so than McCain.. and made his opinion public before it was a hot topic on the news.

There are many republicans that don't get a lot of 'screen time' who share libertarian/humanitarian beliefs, and are strongly against torture.

If you're open-minded enough to see that one man can have an opinion that differs from the majority of republicans, why can't you be open-minded enough to see that maybe there is more than just one who separates themselves from the hive mind?
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bjlillo wrote:
y by Democrats without the input of the CIA. It's riddled with falsehoods and half-truths designed to invoke an emotional response from people. Looks like they're getting what they wanted out of you.


This emotional outburst was from a pro-torture supporter.
 
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whac3 wrote:
Good on McCain as far as it goes.

I used to be proud to also be American. That stopped when the US started openly torturing people, when the US gov't started claiming the US Constitution only applies to certain people.



CIA cited Israeli Supreme Court rulings to justify torture, Senate report says 'Israeli example' cited as possible justification for use of torture when interrogating terror suspects 'where there is no other available means to prevent the harm' they might inflict.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.630...
09.12.14

 
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djgutierrez77 wrote:
It also bears mentioning that the President is an absolute fucking coward, dissembling and trying to straddle the line rather than offering an opinion. Probably because he knows his own administration is guilty of the same crime. Still, for the leader of the country to look at this and sit back and say "We're not picking sides" is unconscionable. At least Bush and Cheney have the balls to say "fuck it, we did it and we don't really give a shit what you think."

I think it has more to do with political cowardice than covering for his own administration, but I could be wrong. He's certainly continued the illegal and immoral practice of extra-judicial murder execution by drone strikes...
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djgutierrez77 wrote:
It also bears mentioning that the President is an absolute fucking coward


NO, he was just doing his job, really. Illegal or not.

Here are the countries involved. Perhaps this will shed some light for ya.

Countries with secret CIA prisons

The Washington Post decoded the report to reveal countries that were home to secret CIA-controlled prisons.

Afghanistan (4 sites)
Poland
Lithuania
Romania
Thailand

Note: According to a 2013 report by the Open Society Justice Initiative, U.S. facilities in Bosnia-Herzegovina were used to "process" detainees, but it is unclear whether the U.S. agency running that operation was the CIA or the Department of Defense.

Countries with proxy CIA prisons

A number of other foreign partners (including two governments that the U.S. has since disavowed, those of Libya and Syria) permitted the CIA to conduct enhanced interrogation in their own facilities, through what are called proxy CIA prisons. Here's a list, drawn from reports by the ACLU and the Open Society Justice Initiative:

Egypt
Syria
Libya
Pakistan
Jordan
Morocco
Gambia
Somalia
Uzbekistan
Ethiopia
Djibouti

Countries that enabled renditions

This list features countries that proved amenable to at least some CIA measures that were only questionably legal. It is a curious mix of prominent Western nations and nations with which the U.S. has long has difficulties. The governments' assistance ranged from passing along information about suspects, including those countries' own citizens, to serving as a transit point for flights to countries where enhanced interrogation was taking place.

Afghanistan
Austria
Australia
Albania
Algeria
Azerbaijan
Belgium
Bosnia-Herzegovina
Canada
Croatia
Cyprus
Czech Republic
Denmark
Djibouti
Egypt
Ethiopia
Finland
Gambia
Georgia
Germany
Greece
Hong Kong
Iceland
Indonesia
Iran
Ireland
Italy
Jordan
Kenya
Libya
Lithuania
Malawi
Malaysia
Mauritania
Morocco
Pakistan
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Saudi Arabia
Somalia
South Africa
Spain
Sri Lanka
Sweden
Syria
Thailand
Turkey
United Arab Emirates (UAE)
United Kingdom
Uzbekistan
Yemen
Zimbabwe
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Faux News gives you their honesty:

Fox News host Andrea Tantaros had a somewhat unique reaction to the Senate Intelligence Committee report on CIA torture programs, which included for example forcing hummus into a detainee's rectum and threatening to rape a detainee's mother.

"The United States of America is awesome. We are awesome, but we've had this discussion" about torture, Tantaros said. She lamented, "the reason they want to have this discussion is not to show how awesome we are;" rather, "this administration wants to have this discussion to show us how we're not awesome." This is because "they apologized for this country, they don't like this country, they want us to look bad. And all this does is have our enemies laughing at us, that we are having this debate again."

She also alleges that the Senate Intelligence Committee torture report, announced in 2009 and released now over the Obama administration's objections, was a plot to distract from Obamacare's latest political woes.

Your right wingers.....

Average Median Age of Fox News Viewer: 68
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DrWhoWho wrote:


NO, he was just doing his job, really. Illegal or not.


The refuge of government villains for time immemorial.
 
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TheChin! wrote:
DrWhoWho wrote:


NO, he was just doing his job, really. Illegal or not.


The refuge of government villains for time immemorial.


I mean, we, as liberals, applaud the President when he makes a stand and refuses to enforce bad laws, even though it is possibly illegal for him to do so. Yet when he refuses to refuse to follow in the disgusting footsteps of his predecessor he is only doing his job. Don't even try.
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With it becoming very public lately that the NSA has been spying on Americans, and now that the CIA tortured people and lied about it, I wonder if we'll start to see conspiracy theories move off the fringes and into the mainstream?
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Diis wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Good on McCain as far as it goes.

I used to be proud to also be American. That stopped when the US started openly torturing people, when the US gov't started claiming the US Constitution only applies to certain people.


The US Constitution is for US citizens and others (resident aliens, foreign visitors, etc., etc.) covered in its purview or as interpreted by Court decisions.

Its protections do not extend to others.

They used to and they should apply to anyone within the US gov't's power. The Constitution is a restriction on the powers of the US gov't-- not a list of the rights of others.
Quote:
However, there are plenty of other treaties that do--say, for instance, international prohibitions on torture to which the US is party, the Geneva Convention, the Laws of Land Warfare, etc. etc.

There are plenty of other protections, that, if adhered to, would protect people's rights without making the whole world somehow honorary US citizens.

Diis

PS: If I've misinterpreted the direction you were going with this comment, my apolgoies.

I'm talking about its application within the US and places the US effectively controls-- like Gitmo. I am angry as hell at the abandonment of what the US proudly stood for for years.
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whac3 wrote:

I'm talking about its application within the US and places the US effectively controls-- like Gitmo. I am angry as hell at the abandonment of what the US proudly stood for for years.


we have tortured for years...this is not a new thing...you just became aware
 
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