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Bruxelles 1893» Forums » Rules

Subject: Selling Art rss

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Jean-Roger Duvauchelle
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I chose this action but I can't sell my works because the same color is already displayed on the board.
Nevertheless, may I move the cursor ?
 
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Brian Pierce
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Lohengrin75 wrote:
I chose this action but I can't sell my works because the same color is already displayed on the board.
Nevertheless, may I move the cursor ?


It has been a while since I have played, but I believe the answer is yes.

Step 1) Move the cursor a number of spaces equal to your total works of art
Step 2) Choose one of your works of art to sell. You aren't allowed to sell the 2 colors already face up, but you can sell another color if you have it. That new color, once sold, will be placed on top of one of the old colors.

You can't do Step 2 if the only colors you have are already shown, but you are free to do Step 1 since you took the action.

EDIT: My answer above is wrong per the designer's response (see below)!
 
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Bryan Thunkd
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That sounds funky. I'd want to reread the rules before I gave that the okay.
 
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Curt Carpenter
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The rules are not lawyer-proof. They say you must choose a tile to sell "whose color is different from those of the two works of art visible in the shop." But they do not say whether you are allowed to do step 1 if you cannot do step 2. They only say "A player is not required to perform the action after placing his assistant on the Art Nouveau board. He is allowed to place it just to participate in the auction."

My interpretation based solely on inferred designer intent, is that you can do as much of the action as you can and choose. Therefore you may move the square.
 
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Bryan Thunkd
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rules wrote:
The player sells one of his works of art and exhibits it in the shop window. He must proceed step by step:

1. The player can move the Workshop cursor, horizontally and/or vertically, a number of spaces equal to the total number of works he has in front of him.

2. From among his Work of Art tiles, he chooses one whose color is different from those of the two works of art visible in the shop. It is impossible to sell a work whose color is already displayed in the shop.

3. He immediately receives the money and VPs indicated by the Workshop cursor dot that is the same color as the work he sold. The dot’s row indicates the monetary income, while the column indicates VP income.

4. Then he places the sold Work of Art tile on one of the two spaces in the store. For the first 2 sales of the game, he is required to put the work on an empty space. Later, he can choose whichever space he wants, covering the work of his choice. This choice is important because the color of the covered work will again be allowed to be sold at the next sale.
The admonishment that a player must proceed step by step implies to me that the player must follow all the steps or none at all.
 
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Curt Carpenter
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Thunkd wrote:
The admonishment that a player must proceed step by step implies to me that the player must follow all the steps or none at all.

It implies the opposite to me. There is no "Step 0: Verify that you can complete all steps successfully before proceeding to Step 1". Therefore, Step 1 is already complete before you run into something you can't do, when following the action "step by step" as the rules dictate.
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Bryan Thunkd
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curtc wrote:
Thunkd wrote:
The admonishment that a player must proceed step by step implies to me that the player must follow all the steps or none at all.

It implies the opposite to me. There is no "Step 0: Verify that you can complete all steps successfully before proceeding to Step 1". Therefore, Step 1 is already complete before you run into something you can't do, when following the action "step by step" as the rules dictate.
I read it as you must go step by step, as in you can't skip any. So if you can't complete a step, then you're attempting something illegal. But I think there's enough ambiguity that it would be nice to have an official ruling.
 
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Brian Pierce
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I agree with Curt. To me, the listing of steps in the rule indicates that Step 1 can be completed on its own. However, I will totally agree that it is left a bit ambiguous.
 
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Michael Mesich
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I think the step-by-step came from play-testing and finding that area needed more explicit direction, not that it was an all or nothing proposition.

Is it illegal to place your worker on a space if you can't complete the action on the space because you have to satisfy every step? No.

Put a check mark in the "can move the marker" category for me. I think you can do as much or as little of an action as you either choose to or are capable of doing.

I even believe you could move the marker and NOT sell eligible art if you really wanted to.
 
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Curt Carpenter
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Just for fun, while waiting for an official ruling...

Thunkd wrote:
I read it as you must go step by step, as in you can't skip any.

Even with the language you just used, I would still rule it the same. I can't think of any examples, even outside of gaming, where the instruction to go step-by-step means that you have to guarantee you can get to the end before starting. All examples I can think of either explicitly or implicitly support the clause of aborting taking more steps, if the next step cannot be taken. "Skipping a step" I think generally means completing a step without having completed all prior prerequisite steps. Usage instances found from google also appear to uphold this.
 
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Bryan Thunkd
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curtc wrote:
I can't think of any examples, even outside of gaming, where the instruction to go step-by-step means that you have to guarantee you can get to the end before starting.
Defusing a bomb? Cooking? Driving directions? Generally they don't explicitly say that you need to guarantee that you can get to the end before starting, but it's usually understood that if you plan on skipping many steps, you're probably better off not starting at all.
 
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Curt Carpenter
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Thunkd wrote:
Defusing a bomb? Cooking? Driving directions? Generally they don't explicitly say that you need to guarantee that you can get to the end before starting, but it's usually understood that if you plan on skipping many steps, you're probably better off not starting at all.

All those just support my argument. In all those cases, you can do partial steps and make partial progress. Nothing stops you from taking step 1. And yes, if you don't complete the process, you won't achieve the stated goal. But if you "skip a step", something will go horribly wrong, thus you generally "must proceed step by step".
 
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Jean-Roger Duvauchelle
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This morning, I just received the answer of the designer himself :

A la réflexion, je répondrais non. En effet, si l’on peut se poser sur une case sans en faire l’action, quand on fait l’action, on la fait entièrement. Et le déplacement du curseur (même s'il est facultatif) fait partie de l’action « vente ».
Donc pas de vente, pas d’influence sur le marché de l’art.


So : either you perform entirely the action, or you don't perform it at all...
You can't move the cursor without selling a work of Art after moving the cursor.
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Brian Pierce
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Lohengrin75 wrote:
This morning, I just received the answer of the designer himself :

A la réflexion, je répondrais non. En effet, si l’on peut se poser sur une case sans en faire l’action, quand on fait l’action, on la fait entièrement. Et le déplacement du curseur (même s'il est facultatif) fait partie de l’action « vente ».
Donc pas de vente, pas d’influence sur le marché de l’art.


So : either you perform entirely the action, or you don't perform it at all...
You can't move the cursor without selling a work of Art after moving the cursor.


Thank you very much for sharing (and translating!)! I apologize for answering incorrectly in the first place. Very interesting question that I'm glad we now have an official answer to.
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Bryan Thunkd
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curtc wrote:
Thunkd wrote:
Defusing a bomb? Cooking? Driving directions? Generally they don't explicitly say that you need to guarantee that you can get to the end before starting, but it's usually understood that if you plan on skipping many steps, you're probably better off not starting at all.

All those just support my argument. In all those cases, you can do partial steps and make partial progress. Nothing stops you from taking step 1. And yes, if you don't complete the process, you won't achieve the stated goal. But if you "skip a step", something will go horribly wrong, thus you generally "must proceed step by step".
Ummm... If you are going to defuse a bomb but stop halfway through, you'd have been better off to use that time to get away instead. If you start cooking a recipe and quit halfway, you're left with a pile of raw ingredients that can't necessarily be reused, depending on how far you got. If you get halfway driving to your destination and decide to quit, that could be worse than not starting at all.

These are all examples where you probably shouldn't have started if you were going to find out you couldn't complete some steps and quit halfway through. Where, if you had access to an authority on the subject, and told them "Well, I'm just going to do the first couple of steps and then stop, because I can't do about half of them" they'd stop you and say "No, no... don't do that! It's wrong to halfway cook a turkey and then stop."

So while yes, you can evaluate every step by itself and determine whether you can complete each individual leg or not, it's considered wrong to execute some of those steps and not all of them. If your wife asked you to cook a turkey, it is not valid to defrost it and rub it down with spices but fail to actually apply heat in any manner. And when you attempt to explain to her that you were justified in leaving meat out to go bad because step 2 instructed you to do so, and it's completely valid to follow that step and skip steps 4-12, let me know how that goes.
 
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Michael Mesich
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Lohengrin75 wrote:
This morning, I just received the answer of the designer himself :

A la réflexion, je répondrais non. En effet, si l’on peut se poser sur une case sans en faire l’action, quand on fait l’action, on la fait entièrement. Et le déplacement du curseur (même s'il est facultatif) fait partie de l’action « vente ».
Donc pas de vente, pas d’influence sur le marché de l’art.


So : either you perform entirely the action, or you don't perform it at all...
You can't move the cursor without selling a work of Art after moving the cursor.


The part that does it for me is the last line where he says "So ... no sale, no influence over the art market."

That makes good thematic sense to me.
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