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Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Cave Spider Ability - Web rss

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Mark Mercer
Canada
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I ask this question not because I believe the rules are ambiguous but because the heroes did it last night and I could not well enough assert the rules without some backup.

A master cave spider has web, which states that a hero must spend a fatigue to move out of any space that is adjacent to the spider. This is in addition to any other fatigue suffered to move.

The hero has one fatigue available and states that they know they cannot normally suffer damage intentionally when they are fatigue maxed but they can suffer their last fatigue to move one square and the spider ability gives them another fatigue which ends up being a damage.

I insisted that they were voluntarily giving themselves damage and that they couldn't do it but I got talked down. I think it would make the spider's web ability pretty useless if it can't really restrict player movement unless they were near death.

Would the situation be any different if the hero started out at max fatigue and chose to do a move action suffering the web as a damage?
 
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Perrin Stewart
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Greer
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I think they're missing the point that the web ability specifically says they MUST spend one fatigue to move out of the space. So that choice comes first. If they want to move out of that space, they have to spend the spider fatigue first. Then they're out of fatigue, and would not be able to use fatigue to move any further.

At least, that's my interpretation...
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Marty McFly
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phunkysai wrote:
I think they're missing the point that the web ability specifically says they MUST spend one fatigue to move out of the space. So that choice comes first. If they want to move out of that space, they have to spend the spider fatigue first. Then they're out of fatigue, and would not be able to use fatigue to move any further.

My interpretation would be that the first choice is to gain Movement Points, otherwise he can't move anyway. The Hero spends suffers one fatigue to gain a Movement Point first. Once the Hero has the MP, he can then start moving, but would have to suffer an additional one fatigue from the Web ability to complete that movement.


The rulebook says this (emphasis mine):
rulebook, p. 13 wrote:
When using Skills or moving, a hero may only suffer fatigue up to an amount equal to his Stamina. If any other game effect forces a hero to suffer fatigue in excess of his stamina, he instead suffers damage equal to the excess fatigue that would have been suffered.

To me, the question is this: does the Web ability fall into the category of "any other game effect"? It is definitely not a Skill, but does it count as "moving"? I would probably rule that it does not count as moving. It is triggered by the Hero using a Movement Point, but isn't movement itself since it doesn't directly give the Hero any additional Movement Points.

So, my personal ruling would be that the Hero can take 1 damage to move away from the Master Cave Spider.


Quote:
Would the situation be any different if the hero started out at max fatigue and chose to do a move action suffering the web as a damage?

Not in my mind. The Hero could take a Move Action to gain MP and then move, thereby suffering 1 fatigue/damage when moving away from the Master Cave Spider.
 
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Bert McCloud
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Can someone quote the exact text?

I'm trying to figure out if there should be a difference based on if it says "spend" or "suffer"

The way I see it is that if it says that in order to move out of the space a hero "suffers" one fatigue (as the example above from page 13) then the hero can do exactly what is outlined in the question.

However, if the hero must "spend" a fatigue in order to move out of the square then he shouldn't be able to move out of the square in this scenario.

My reasoning is that "spending" is ALWAYS a choice. Unelss there are any examples anyone can think of that contradicts this?
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Marty McFly
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BertMcCloud wrote:
Can someone quote the exact text?

I'm trying to figure out if there should be a difference based on if it says "spend" or "suffer"

The way I see it is that if it says that in order to move out of the space a hero "suffers" one fatigue (as the example above from page 13) then the hero can do exactly what is outlined in the question.

However, if the hero must "spend" a fatigue in order to move out of the square then he shouldn't be able to move out of the square in this scenario.

My reasoning is that "spending" is ALWAYS a choice. Unelss there are any examples anyone can think of that contradicts this?

Actually, I don't think the rules ever use the word "spend". Fatigue is always "suffered" but some gamers (like me) think of it as spending stamina, so we erroneously use the word "spend" when talking about fatigue.
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Marty McFly
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I should have just looked it up in the FAQ. It has been answered that you can move away from the Master Cave Spider and take 1 damage.

Page 3 here:
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/descent-second...
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Paul
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Quote:
Q: Andira Runehand's hero ability reads: "Each time you suffer 1 or more damage from an adjacent figure, that figure suffers 1 damage." If Andira has fatigue equal to her stamina and suffers fatigue due to an ability of an adjacent monster, say an leech ability (or a master cave spider's web ability), does the monster take 1 damage from Andira?

A: The damage in this case is suffered as the result of having suffered fatigue up to the hero's Stamina, so Andira Runehand's ability would not trigger. (1)


This is from the unofficial FAQ. The assumption implicit in this response is that while at full stamina, you can move and suffer the fatigue.

Also, read (a little further down the list in the "Rules" forum) the thread about "Reflective Ward." It contains an answer from Nathan describing some of the different phrasings that imply you can suffer the fatigue as damage, and the ones that can only be suffered as fatigue (though the phrasing on web isn't in there.)
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Bert McCloud
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martidem wrote:
Actually, I don't think the rules ever use the word "spend". Fatigue is always "suffered" but some gamers (like me) think of it as spending stamina, so we erroneously use the word "spend" when talking about fatigue.


I should really stop saying spend then, I use the word spend when referring to fatigue all the time.

Edit: Also if this is accurate, I completely agree with you; Heroes can move out of the web.
 
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Marty McFly
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BertMcCloud wrote:
martidem wrote:
Actually, I don't think the rules ever use the word "spend". Fatigue is always "suffered" but some gamers (like me) think of it as spending stamina, so we erroneously use the word "spend" when talking about fatigue.


I should really stop saying spend then, I use the word spend when referring to fatigue all the time.

Oh yeah, well my wife uses the word "spend" when referring to everything!

(And, luckily, she is not on BGG and will never see this, because another word she likes to use is "couch".)
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Mark Mercer
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martidem wrote:

Oh yeah, well my wife uses the word "spend" when referring to everything!

(And, luckily, she is not on BGG and will never see this, because another word she likes to use is "couch".)


Lol, thats awsome! Well maybe I should have not been an idiot and realized there was an FAQ and could have saved myself having to ask the question in the first place.

It seems really counter intuitive though, the point of "web" is to restrict hero movement. There's not really any point to it if it can't do that. And if you think about it the web is sticky and costs you extra time and energy to get away from. And if you just don't have the energy to dig yourself out how does a spiderweb even hurt you and then allow you to get away?

But anyway if that's the ruling in the FAQ I'll accept that. Thanks for the discussion guys.
 
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Marty McFly
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kaervek wrote:
It seems really counter intuitive though, the point of "web" is to restrict hero movement. There's not really any point to it if it can't do that.
Stamina is very important in the game. It's used for many Skills and other effects. The intent (in my mind) of the Web ability isn't so much to restrict movement as it is to force Heroes to suffer fatigue so that their action/skill options are limited.

kaervek wrote:
And if you just don't have the energy to dig yourself out how does a spiderweb even hurt you and then allow you to get away?
The way I see it, you got away but weren't quick enough and the spider was able to nibble on you first.
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Craig Bocketti
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martidem wrote:
Stamina is very important in the game. It's used for many Skills and other effects. The intent (in my mind) of the Web ability isn't so much to restrict movement as it is to force Heroes to suffer fatigue so that their action/skill options are limited.


Or force someone to have to kill it using one or two actions, to free up the others to move and preserve that valuable stamina.
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