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Subject: Santon Fixed Battery & Approach Penalties rss

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John Labelle
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In regards to the Santon:

"Approach penalties apply to attacks into the local even when the defending pieces are in reserve."

This would still apply when the fixed battery is NOT named a defense leading unit? (but is still alive and well).

Also,

If the fixed battery IS eliminated, then "POOF" any remaining units in reserve would LOSE this special condition of "in reserve but with approach penalties applied" immediately?

Thanks!
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Kåre Dyvik
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Momoshiro wrote:
In regards to the Santon:

"Approach penalties apply to attacks into the local even when the defending pieces are in reserve."

This would still apply when the fixed battery is NOT named a defense leading unit? (but is still alive and well).


I guess that you are concerned with a situation where units on the Santon are attacked from two approaches in the same turn.

1. If the artillery is alone, it will lead the defense against the first attack, and penalties apply. In the second attack, it cannot defend, as it already defended against an attack from a different approach. With no defending units, the battle is lost, and the artillery is eliminated. Penalties are irrelevant. The second attack may even be performed with zero leading units (e.g. a 1-cav unit).

2. If there is another unit with the fixed battery, it may choose not to defend against the first attack, in order to be able to defend against the second (or the other way round). Then the penalties apply, as per the rules. A 1-inf cannot lead from reserve, however, but may still be named a defending unit if it didn't defend against the previous attack.

Momoshiro wrote:
Also,

If the fixed battery IS eliminated, then "POOF" any remaining units in reserve would LOSE this special condition of "in reserve but with approach penalties applied" immediately?

And what if another unit occupies the Santon AFTER the fixed battery is eliminated?
My interpretation is that the special condition applies to the Santon feature itself, not the units occupying it. If you choose to play with the Santon rule, you thereby acknowledge the hill's special features, which apply no matter what happens after the French fixed battery is set up there. Then, even Allied units could benefit from them.

Edit: This interpretation is wrong.

But remember that no other artillery is effective on the Santon.
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nappeto wrote:
Momoshiro wrote:

Also,

If the fixed battery IS eliminated, then "POOF" any remaining units in reserve would LOSE this special condition of "in reserve but with approach penalties applied" immediately?

And what if another unit occupies the Santon AFTER the fixed battery is eliminated?
My interpretation is that the special condition applies to the Santon feature itself, not the units occupying it. If you choose to play with the Santon rule, you thereby acknowledge the hill's special features, which apply no matter what happens after the French fixed battery is set up there. Then, even Allied units could benefit from them.
But remember that no other artillery is effective on the Santon.

No.

Quote:
If the French fixed battery is set up in the
Santon, the following special rules apply
:
• The unit must set up in reserve.
• The unit is allowed to lead an attack
or defense from reserve. It can do this
across any of the three approaches in the
locale.
• Approach penalties apply to attacks
into the locale even when the defending
pieces are in reserve.
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Kåre Dyvik
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Two of the three rules regard the fixed battery unit itself, and certainly don't apply if the unit is eliminated. The third rule mentions "defending units", including other units than the fixed battery. So if the units are not positioned in another approach, the penalties should apply.
However, the crucial sentence is the introductory "If the French fixed battery is set up in the Santon". The fixed battery is set up in the Santon - at the beginning of the game. But should we read "as long as the fixed battery remains on the Santon"?

Edit: The official answer is YES.

Clearly, the rule applies if the supporting unit defends alone while the fixed battery is still there (possibly having defended against an attack earlier in the same turn). But it is the geography of the Santon that gives the unit its defensive advantages, not the fixed battery. So I share the OPs wondering that the defensive properties of the Santon mysteriously disappear when the battery is knocked out.
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John Labelle
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Well, what was old is new again.
Sorry guys, we're covering ground that Rachel has already covered.

Found this older thread researching the question some more:

Santon taken

I guess the "POOF!" Happens.

My only question now would be one of designer curiosity. What are the reasons behind the rule?
I'll hazard a guess that the Santon Fixed Battery gun emplacement was fortified to such an extent that it and it alone gave the defenders an edge. Not the natural steep terrain. The special advantages would go away once the fortified position was destroyed.

Thank you for the responses!
I'm in "First few solo games" mode.
I haven't enjoyed a game and a game system so much in a long time.
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Kåre Dyvik
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Thank you - I never got around to checking the older threads. blush I may even have read it at one point, but forgotten it. It is a rare situation.

So I was wrong. Still, I am partly redeemed by Bowen's own admission that this isn't as clear in the rules at it should be. shake

And I too miss the reason for this rule. Historically, the French dug out some of the hillside in order to make it steeper and more inaccessible. That should apply to French forces trying to recapture the Santon as well.

Edit: from a thread in ConsimWorld by Bowen:
The special rules were mainly design to reflect the fact that the hill was small enough that the guns could be rapidly re-positioned to point in a different direction (the rules would normally turn this into a two-hour operation).

And - important clarification: If no units are blocking the approach, the "inherent" infantry penalty does not apply. Thus, an attacking infantry only gets -1 penalty.
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Joakim Pihlstrand-Trulp
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nappeto wrote:
And - important clarification: If no units are blocking the approach, the "inherent" infantry penalty does not apply. Thus, an attacking infantry only gets -1 penalty.


I understand from other threads that this was the designer's intention. From what I can see, the rules do not follow that intention.

The Santon rules state "Approach penalties apply to attacks into the locale even when the defending pieces are in reserve."

On a small note, it does say penalties in a plural sense, not singular (i e "one approach penalty applies...". Of course it can be interpreted as simply regarding different kinds of penalties.

In any case, now the obvious question arises, what then is an approach penalty?

I believe the answer can be found in step 6 in the attack procedure (initial result):

a) "If the attack leading units are infantry and the defending pieces are blocking the defense approach subtract one" and

b) "If there is a penalty in the defense approach that matches the type of the attack leading units and the defending pieces are blocking the defense approach, subtract one".

The word "penalty" is not present in a), but the essence of penalty is definitely implied in the context.

I believe what the designer had to do (as with +2 block cavalry corpses attacking by road), was to state in the Santon rules that this does not include the ordinary, on the map invisible, approach penalty for infantry. Presumably put in a more distinct and clear way.

As it stands, my opinion is strong: Infantry attacking the Santon get -2 penalty even when the defenders are in reserve. Now hit me.
 
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Joakim Pihlstrand-Trulp
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For reference, repelling my interpretation, this is from a FAQ in the files section (answer most likely from Simmons):

"Q: The rules make it clear that the approach penalties apply when the Santon fixed battery defends
against an attack, even though the unit is in reserve. Do non-artillery units defending from reserve
on the Santon also benefit from the approach penalties?

A: The rule states that “Approach penalties apply to attacks into the locale even when the defending
pieces are in reserve." This means that all pieces in reserve, not just the artillery piece, receive the
benefits of the approach penalties. (Approach penalties, as defined in Section 4 of the rules, are the
infantry, cavalry, and artillery attack penalties that are printed on the locale approaches on the board. To
be clear, approach penalties do not include the modifiers and effects associated with defending units being
in the defense approach: the additional -1 for attacking infantry, ties going to the defending units, etc.)"
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