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Subject: "Tunnel Fighter" game concept rss

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martin
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Hey guys,
I've been frequenting BGG for about a month now and from what I see it seems like a great community and a great way to shoot game ideas around. This is my first post so please be gentle

I'm currently working on a fighting card game (Yep, I know..ANOTHER card fighting game) called "Tunnel Fighter" It will have a fantasy theme and take place within underground tunnels. Definitely nothing new here, except that I'm hoping the overall mechanics might be worth it.

THE SETTING
-----------
The setting of the game is that in the mountains of this fantasy world
(no name yet) are ancient tunnels systems which have been, for the most part forgotten, over run by monsters and left derelict for ages. Only brave adventurers dare explore these tunnels in search of treasure and fame.

THE CONCEPT
-----------
The concept of the game is that different characters are roaming these underground catacombs, for different reasons, and some times they run into each other which results in a fight. Basically there are going to be 5 characters to begin with..

A GOBLIN: Armed with a spear, shield and a bag of nasty tricks
An ELF: Armed with a bow and 2 short swords
An ORC: Armed with a 2 axes, light armor, shield
A DWARF: Armed with a war hammer, heavy armor, shield
A HUMAN: Armed with a sword, a pistol and dagger

Each character has different STATS.
STATS include: HEALTH, FOCUS, AGILITY, STRENGTH, MELEE SKILL and
RANGED SKILL

COMBAT MECHANICS (WIP)
----------------------
Each Character will have a deck of cards with 20 combat moves plus equipment cards (see equipment above) Each move has different strengths, some are more powerful than others. Also Roughly half are ATTACKS and RANGED attacks, while the other half are defensive such as BLOCK and DODGE. Some are even a combination of the two (COUNTER-ATTACK). There will also be DIRTY TRICKS and TAUNTS.

I'm still working out the basic combat mechanisms so I'm not going to go into too much detail here. However, things I'm planning to include are.

-CRITICAL HITS
(which can disable an arm, leg ect.. which in turn effects the character's stats)

-COMBO MOVES (2 hit combinations)

-MAGIC(eventually, possibly as an expansion along with a wizard character)

I'm undecided whether I want to include custom dice for some randomness in combat (possibly a D3, a d6 seems way too random) or to draw cards with each attack.

Anyway, Thats it for now. Let me know what you think of this concept or if you have any critiques or suggestions.

Cheers
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Koen Hendrix
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Hi Martin, your concept seems to be focused on building a fantasy combat system. I would advise you to focus first on what kind of game you want to make, as that will affect what kind of combat system you want in it. Some questions from me:

What kind of game are you aiming for? Light or heavy? Short or long? Funny/lighthearted or gritty-realistic?

What is the player's goal (how does one win)? Are they in the tunnels just to fight and/or kill each other, or are they completing some different task? Do players fight only each other or other monsters as well?

If every character has their own unique deck of attacks, defenses and other abilities, why would you even need stats? Don't throw them in there just because they're a fantasy adventuring staple -- add them if it makes the game more interesting.

Do you imagine combat to include positioning (i.e. moving on a map)? Would combat work with simultaneous turns or alternating turns?
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martin
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Hello Koen,

Thanks for the comments, I appreciate it.

What kind of game are you aiming for? Light or heavy? Short or long? Funny/lighthearted or gritty-realistic?

I am aiming for a realistic game. The combat will be to the death and include such things as blood and critical wounds.

What is the player's goal (how does one win)? Are they in the tunnels just to fight and/or kill each other, or are they completing some different task? Do players fight only each other or other monsters as well?

The goal is to win the combat by killing your opponent's fighter. They are essentially in the tunnels for different tasks, however in-game they are just meant to fight each other.

If every character has their own unique deck of attacks, defenses and other abilities, why would you even need stats? Don't throw them in there just because they're a fantasy adventuring staple -- add them if it makes the game more interesting.

The combination of unique decks and stats IMO would make it more interesting for the combat mechanism. Like I said there will be stuff such as critical wounds which can effect a player's stats which in turn can effect his ability to perform certain moves. I am planning on having each move require a certain number of stat points to do (for instance a DODGE move may require AGILITY 3 or more..Your fighter had AGILITY 3, however last round he was wounded in the right leg and lost 1 AGILITY, he is now at AGILITY 2 and therefore cannot perform this move anymore.)

Do you imagine combat to include positioning (i.e. moving on a map)? Would combat work with simultaneous turns or alternating turns?

At the moment positioning is not in the plans (no moving on the map)the game will be 2D, don't want to include a game board to keep costs down if it ever reaches the manufactoring stage. Combat is simultaneous. Each round each fighter picks two moves each and present them to each other simultaneously. Depending on the choice of moves (Ie. complexity, type ect) will determine who gets the Attack through.
For instance,
player one draws a light Attack (1st) and a Dodge (2nd) for his two moves.
Player two draws a Heavy Attack (1st) and a Medium attack (2nd) for his two moves.

Player one would get priority on the 1st and get his LIGHT attack off before his enemy can make the HEAVY Attack because it is easier and quicker to perform. Resolve the attack. Player two does not get a chance
to get his HEAVY attack off.

For the The 2nd move player 1 uses a DODGE, which concedes the initiative to player two because he chose to attack. Player two gets to
resolve his MEDIUM attack against player's one's dodge attempt.

How the above would be simulated I'm still working on at the moment. Trying to figure out whether to include dice or to draw cards that represents randomness to see if the dodge or attack would be successful.

Cheers,

Martin
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Stephen Williams
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melbards wrote:

What kind of game are you aiming for? Light or heavy? Short or long? Funny/lighthearted or gritty-realistic?

I am aiming for a realistic game. The combat will be to the death and include such things as blood and critical wounds.


So, heavy rules-wise and probably on the long side (at least for a card game.) Not a criticism, mind you, just an observation.

melbards wrote:

The combination of unique decks and stats IMO would make it more interesting for the combat mechanism. Like I said there will be stuff such as critical wounds which can effect a player's stats which in turn can effect his ability to perform certain moves. I am planning on having each move require a certain number of stat points to do (for instance a DODGE move may require AGILITY 3 or more..Your fighter had AGILITY 3, however last round he was wounded in the right leg and lost 1 AGILITY, he is now at AGILITY 2 and therefore cannot perform this move anymore.)


A suggestion, if I might: make sure each card has a "back up" or "default" use that doesn't depend on stats. Perhaps you can discard any card to heal one stat point, for example. Otherwise, it could be very frustrating if a wounded player continually draws cards that he no longer has the stats to perform.

Depending on the scope of your game, it might also be interesting if there was a pool of "generic cards" that any player could draw on when building their deck. Thus, the first part of the game would be deciding what cards you want to add to your character's core deck of "only him" cards. This would really expand the game into the realm of CCG/LCG complexity, though, which might be a broader scope than you're envisioning.


melbards wrote:

Combat is simultaneous. Each round each fighter picks two moves each and present them to each other simultaneously. Depending on the choice of moves (Ie. complexity, type ect) will determine who gets the Attack through.


Is this game able to support more than two players? If so, how do you decide who is attacking whom?

melbards wrote:

How the above would be simulated I'm still working on at the moment. Trying to figure out whether to include dice or to draw cards that represents randomness to see if the dodge or attack would be successful.


Assuming there are multiple copies of each card in a given player's deck, you could assign a "damage" value which varies from one otherwise-identical card to the next. Perhaps with the correct damage values, a card could even shift from MEDIUM to HEAVY, or MEDIUM to LIGHT despite being the same attack.

This method would be more deterministic and less random, which again might not be what you want, but it's an idea.

If you do want to draw cards for it, though, I would suggest having a die value on each card in the deck and then when you need to "roll" for something, you burn a card to determine the result. There are a few games out there that use this mechanic, you might want to research them to see if it gives you any ideas. Having a second deck just for RNG (Random Number Generation) seems clunky to me.
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martin
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Hi Stephen,

Thanks for taking the time to comment.

So, heavy rules-wise and probably on the long side (at least for a card game.) Not a criticism, mind you, just an observation.

It might seem a little heavy at first but I will try to condense the game to 60 mins or less and try to balance simple/complex as much as possible. I don't want players constantly stalling the game by looking up rules every round.

A suggestion, if I might: make sure each card has a "back up" or "default" use that doesn't depend on stats. Perhaps you can discard any card to heal one stat point, for example. Otherwise, it could be very frustrating if a wounded player continually draws cards that he no longer has the stats to perform.

Thats true. I was originally going to go with FOCUS points. FOCUS could be expended to do several things including boosting attacks/defence, healing a critical wound, re-drawing move cards and picking a body part to attack (which would allow the player to strategically focus on certain body parts) Every Character starts with a number of FOCUS points to use as they see fit and they can regained by, for example, successfully dodging or blocking an enemy attack (which is in part why a player would choose to defend instead of always attacking in the 1st place)

Depending on the scope of your game, it might also be interesting if there was a pool of "generic cards" that any player could draw on when building their deck. Thus, the first part of the game would be deciding what cards you want to add to your character's core deck of "only him" cards. This would really expand the game into the realm of CCG/LCG complexity, though, which might be a broader scope than you're envisioning.

I was planning on having each player have only 5 cards to play per turn. They would expend 2 cards in the combat phase each turn (ie. the two moves) re-drawing another 2 cards every turn to add to the 3 they have left over after combat. Again, they could use FOCUS to alternatively
re-draw all 5 cards and swap all there moves out. I do not want this game to be a CCG, I feel each player should have an equal chance going into a fight, not who has the most expansive Rare cards.

Is this game able to support more than two players? If so, how do you decide who is attacking whom?

Definately yes although, I'm not currently at that stage yet despite having already given it some thought. I'm thinking maybe a tag team concept would work best.. I may leave this out for an expansion set (not in the original rules) we shall see.

Assuming there are multiple copies of each card in a given player's deck, you could assign a "damage" value which varies from one otherwise-identical card to the next. Perhaps with the correct damage values, a card could even shift from MEDIUM to HEAVY, or MEDIUM to LIGHT despite being the same attack.
This method would be more deterministic and less random, which again might not be what you want, but it's an idea.


There will be multiple copies of certain moves, while the best moves (HEAVY) might be somewhat rarer. You have a good idea. Thank you. Maybe by using a FOCUS to boost a move it can shift a MEDIUM move to HEAVY or something along those lines. I'm not sure if I want FOCUS to make the Attack better succeed or do more damage to health yet..maybe the player chooses or possibly even both at the same time.



If you do want to draw cards for it, though, I would suggest having a die value on each card in the deck and then when you need to "roll" for something, you burn a card to determine the result. There are a few games out there that use this mechanic, you might want to research them to see if it gives you any ideas. Having a second deck just for RNG (Random Generation) seems clunky to me.

I was thinking of each move having a SPEED number assigned to it, so in the event both players chose Attack. Only the one with the quickest SPEED would get through. Obviously HEAVY attacks would be slow, but deal more damage and/or easier Critical wounds. While LIGHT attacks would be faster but deal less damage (with more chances of success)maybe the dice can determine exactly how much damage is dealt. Say a light attack does a base of 2 + D3 and a HEAVY does a base of 4 +D3. Not sure yet.

Thanks again and cheers,
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Kai Scheuer
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Those ideas scream for asymetrical gameplay!

Something along those lines:

Goblin: 3 light attacks, 2 dodges, 15 dirty tricks.
Elf: 10 light/medium ranged attacks, 7 dodges, 3 dirty tricks.
Orc: 14 medium/heavy attacks, 5 blocks, 1 dirty trick...

And so on..

I'm curious

ninja
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martin
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LOL finally figured out how to quote someone..I'm such a noob modest

Quote:
Those ideas scream for asymetrical gameplay!
Something along those lines:
Goblin: 3 light attacks, 2 dodges, 15 dirty tricks.
Elf: 10 light/medium ranged attacks, 7 dodges, 3 dirty tricks.
Orc: 14 medium/heavy attacks, 5 blocks, 1 dirty trick...
And so on..
I'm curious
ninja


Yep. Thats exactly what I'm aiming here for Asymetrical play, where each character plays very differently to the next and is a unique experience. For example the Goblin is not strong, Doesn't have the best agility and is not the most focused creature in fantasy games...However to balance the game and make players actually want to choose to play the Goblin he will have access to dirty tricks which other characters won't or won't have as many. Other ideas I have for the Goblin will be 'Stunted' (where he gains +1 agility to dodge success because of his small size) Also a move like throw dirt in enemy's eyes ect.. and possibly add a tie breaker for the goblin where he would win if both players choose say MEDIUM attacks because he has a spear with longer range than say a sword or axe.

My aim for moves would be about 20 each character, something along the generic lines of...

9x Attack/ranged Attack (3 light, 3 med, 3 heavy)
6x Block/Dodge (2 light, 2 med, 2 heavy)
2x Counter Attack
3x Special

Now like you pointed out Ninja, Each character will have different mixtures of the above combinations. Not BIG differences, but a few none the less. so the Goblin might have -2 Attack cards but +2 Special.
The elf might have more ranged (She carries a bow) and dodge but less block (no armor or shield)and attack or such.

Cheers and thanks for the reply
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martin
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Here are some WIP cards for the game I came up with tonight. This is hardly the finished product but will be used for concept/prototyping. I would like to use an image of the the character actually doing the move for the Move cards.

Let me know what you think.

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Kai Scheuer
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melbards wrote:
Here are some WIP cards for the game I came up with tonight. This is hardly the finished product but will be used for concept/prototyping. I would like to use an image of the the character actually doing the move for the Move cards.

Let me know what you think.



Type medium behind the image ID to have it come out bigger:

[/q]

Aside from that, as a fan of language independent stuff, just a question:
Would it be possible for each character to have the special skills represented by a symbol, too?

Also: The goblin looks a bit weird .. but that's just a question of taste..



Kind regards,
Kai
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martin
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Hi Kai,

Thanks for the tip on enlarging the images.

When you mention special skills do you mean the special rules listed at the bottom of the card? (for example magic mushroom and stunted) If so, I like the idea. I could put a mushroom symbol next to it like I did for the spear under "requirements" on the Attack card.

In regards to the Goblin, Yes he does look kinda weird IMO as well (the pose is off, he is outdoors and his clothing is definitely not to my liking. however, this is not the final image. Once I get a small budget together I am going to seriously rework the characters. I plan on giving him some kind of black hooded cloak or cowl with the aim of making him more menacing.

Thanks for the input Kai. I appreciate it.

Sincerely,
Martin
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