Alan Rqthstar
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I've been able to rule my way out of a lot of corner cases so far, but here's one I'm interested in hearing more discussion about.

What happens if:

- The Doppelgänger copies a Troublemaker, then
- The Doppel-Troublemaker swaps the Paranormal Investigator with another player (let's say a Villager,) then
- The player who was the Paranormal Investigator views a wolf?

Is the player with the P.I. card now a wolf, or is the player who was the P.I. now a wolf? What if then the original troublemaker swaps the original P.I. again, is the Villager card a wolf now? How do you untangle this at the end of the day?

Based on how other roles work I assume the P.I. card becomes a wolf card, but that is pretty weird.
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Jason Green
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It's always the case that the effect applies to the card (and the player who ends up with the card at the end), and requires the original owner of the card to (truthfully) say what happened. So in this case, the person who ended with the PI card is a wolf. The original PI is just a Villager.

Another way of looking at it is that, conceptually, all the changes of roles happens right at the end of night simultaneously.
 
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Alan Rqthstar
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SmackleFunky wrote:
It's always the case that the effect applies to the card (and the player who ends up with the card at the end), and requires the original owner of the card to (truthfully) say what happened. So in this case, the person who ended with the PI card is a wolf. The original PI is just a Villager.

Another way of looking at it is that, conceptually, all the changes of roles happens right at the end of night simultaneously.

Yeah, but isn't that weird?
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Jarek
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I guess this could also happen with Alpha Wolf, PI and Drunk.
AW swaps PI with 4th, former PI sees wolf, Drunk takes PI card (btw, is it legal to take 4th card?)

As for your original case, I could just as well see ruling, that Villager card held by former PI becomes a wolf.
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Jason Green
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rathstar wrote:
SmackleFunky wrote:
It's always the case that the effect applies to the card (and the player who ends up with the card at the end), and requires the original owner of the card to (truthfully) say what happened. So in this case, the person who ended with the PI card is a wolf. The original PI is just a Villager.

Another way of looking at it is that, conceptually, all the changes of roles happens right at the end of night simultaneously.

Yeah, but isn't that weird?


Isn't people turning into werewolves weird?

I see what you mean though, the player no longer "has" the card, but he's still acting as though he does. But it's fine, it's just how the game works. The same type of thing happens with a lot of cards... The robber robs the troublemaker, and is "now the troublemaker", but of course she doesn't get to do the troublemaker night action, because she isn't *really* the troublemaker, just has the card. It's really the same logic as that.
 
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Jason Green
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JarekWarsaw wrote:
(btw, is it legal to take 4th card?)


Oooh, Rules say "All roles that can view or move a center card may also view or move the center werewolf card". So Yes, they can!

I've been playing it so that you can only view but not take, but I guess you can. That should be fun.
 
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Steven Albano
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It's kind of like if you wake up as the Insomniac and see a Doppleganger. You don't know what you are, and it's up to the Doppleganger after the reveal to tell you.
 
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Excellent question

The answer is clearly that the player with the pi card is the werewolf. The more interesting part is if it is weird. I will argue that it is not weird. The thing is, the paranormal investigator does not care (or know) if he was swapped by the doppelganger troublemaker or the real one.

Except if he sees his own card, then it gets weird
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Don Brookins
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I'm stumped by this one. I would've thought that the Villager card the P.I. possessed would become the Werewolf, not the P.I. card that was swapped away, but it seems like others feel differently.
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CurlyJefferson wrote:
I'm stumped by this one. I would've thought that the Villager card the P.I. possessed would become the Werewolf, not the P.I. card that was swapped away, but it seems like others feel differently.


I agree with this. I'd say the new role is assigned to the player's current card regardless where the original card with the role he is doing is now.

So in the above case, the player who ends up with the original PI card is a PI who is on villager team but the original player with the villager card (who started with the PI card) assigns the wolf to the villager card he currently has and that villager card is actually the wolf.

Even if the real troublemaker swapped them back I'd say that's what happens.

Or am I overthinking this?
 
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Robert Stewart
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jhsa wrote:
CurlyJefferson wrote:
I'm stumped by this one. I would've thought that the Villager card the P.I. possessed would become the Werewolf, not the P.I. card that was swapped away, but it seems like others feel differently.


I agree with this. I'd say the new role is assigned to the player's current card regardless where the original card with the role he is doing is now.

So in the above case, the player who ends up with the original PI card is a PI who is on villager team but the original player with the villager card (who started with the PI card) assigns the wolf to the villager card he currently has and that villager card is actually the wolf.

Even if the real troublemaker swapped them back I'd say that's what happens.

Or am I overthinking this?


I'm in the "PI card counts" camp - wherever the PI card ends up and whenever it was moved, it takes an allegiance according to what the person who started with it saw when he took the action. Aside from anything else, it's much simpler to evaluate than figuring out which card it was that was actually there at the time and then tracking that.

It's a new problem introduced by the PI in Daybreak as the only card that changes allegiance based on things that happen at night after cards have (potentially) been moved - the Doppelganger's allegiance is set before anything has the chance to move, and the Cursed is determined by the lynching (and based on the position of cards at that point) - so there's no precedent, and no directly relevant ruling.
 
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Alan Rqthstar
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jhsa wrote:
CurlyJefferson wrote:
I'm stumped by this one. I would've thought that the Villager card the P.I. possessed would become the Werewolf, not the P.I. card that was swapped away, but it seems like others feel differently.


I agree with this. I'd say the new role is assigned to the player's current card regardless where the original card with the role he is doing is now.

So in the above case, the player who ends up with the original PI card is a PI who is on villager team but the original player with the villager card (who started with the PI card) assigns the wolf to the villager card he currently has and that villager card is actually the wolf.

Even if the real troublemaker swapped them back I'd say that's what happens.

Or am I overthinking this?

While this is logical, it requires a lot of work at the end of the day, especially if the PI gets switched or robbed again. The PI has no way of knowing what his/her card was at the time of his/her night action. The rules become easier to follow if you stick with the interpretation of the PI card being the thing that becomes a werewolf or tanner card. To me that's unsatisfying, but I guess that has a lot to do with the text of the night action in the app, which says "you become a werewolf or tanner." "You" in this case is not necessarily accurate. That's what makes this scenario different from other scenarios where a player ends up with an ambiguous card (usually the Doppel) because at least the person who had that card at the time is responsible for what that card means.
 
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jhsa wrote:
CurlyJefferson wrote:
I'm stumped by this one. I would've thought that the Villager card the P.I. possessed would become the Werewolf, not the P.I. card that was swapped away, but it seems like others feel differently.


I agree with this. I'd say the new role is assigned to the player's current card regardless where the original card with the role he is doing is now.

So in the above case, the player who ends up with the original PI card is a PI who is on villager team but the original player with the villager card (who started with the PI card) assigns the wolf to the villager card he currently has and that villager card is actually the wolf.

Even if the real troublemaker swapped them back I'd say that's what happens.

Or am I overthinking this?


Another major problem with this (besides the other objections listed above) is that a PI might turn a wolf card into a tanner or vice versa. If he does and he dies, who wins? If he doesn't see evil, will his card join the village side?
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Allan Clements
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the PI card itself, becomes a Wolf or a Tanner if it sees one. Whoever was the PI at the start, says what it was at the end after revealing.

It behaves just like doppelganger in that respect.

With the exception of the Curator tokens, whatever card you end up with is what team you are on.

The PI behaved differently it would just say so.
 
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